The Small Squad - Myth?

[Bryce]

first season up we got very few injuries so depth of squad wasnt an issue
Second season similar
Third season- not hot at all as the injuries mounted
Last season the same

There are about 7 players who would be in each game every game. The other four are interchangeable and with five subs that would give you the better depth , without injuries.

I don't think Moutinho will be anything other than a substitute with the 4 at the back system. He will come on after an hour to do what he does best and he can then use all his energy for 30 minutes and not be knackered.
Neves starts every game bar those he is injured or suspended and he will get a suspension. Thats when Moutinho will get a start.
MGW Podence A new CM would be interchangeable
Jimenez still needs competition up top. Hwang 2 may be a good option.
Guedes, Neto, Traore , Chiqunho, Hwang 1 all interchangeable
Boly , Toti on the bench with Semedo in for Jonny

So when all fit we should look something akin to this
4-2-3-1

Sa
Semedo Collins Kilman RAN
Neves Dendoncker
Neto Podence Guedes
Jimenez

subs- 9 from
MGW
Boly
Jonny
Toti
New CM
Hwang1
NEW (Hwang2)
Sarkic
Moutinho
Traore
Chiquinho
Cundle
Mosquero

Five subs allowed in three different sub periods I believe so thats 2 x 2 and a 1

Typically- Moutinho and MGW for Podence and Dendonker at 65 mins
Double Hwangs at 75 mins
Any another to suit.

I don t think we can ask much more than that, it depends if any of those leave us this window. Like any squad we need to keep our best players fit for as long as possible and avoid totting up silly yellow cards.

 

[Chris H]

Right, so people disregard the Man City comparison so let’s look at West Ham instead.

This disregards injuries for both as they have their fair share too and we’re taking about squads not players who are currently available.

XI: (both 4-2-3-1 for a direct comparison)

Fabianski	Sa
Coufal	Semedo
Zouma	Collins
Aguerd	Kilman
Cresswell	RAN
Rice	Neves
Soucek	Moutinho
Fornals	Neto
Lanzini	Podence
Bowen	Guedes
Scamacca	Jimenez

Bench/Squad:

Keepers:
Areola	Sarkic
Randolph
Fullbacks:
Johnson	Jonny
CB’s:
Dawson	Boly
Ogbonna	Gomes
	Mosquera
CM’s:
Downes	Dendoncker
Coventry	Ronan
	Cundle
Forwards:
Cornet	MGW
Benrahma	Traore
Antonio	Chiquinho
	Hwang

On the left is a squad that people laud as having done excellent business compared to the one on the right which has apparently been mismanaged and let get in to a mess.

Now that’s West Ham’s squad from their own website so the players they class as first team squad. Ours is the same although I’ve got Ronan instead of Jordao based on the fact Ronan has been with the squad and Jordao hasn’t.

So we can argue about quality, but the idea that we’re short on depth but we’re no shorter than a team that many on here have lauded is disingenuous.

We’re so short at CM but the club that people reckoned were the best challengers to the top 6 last year and perhaps again this have Downes and Coventry as their only other CM options. Which is, yes, 4 CM’s including a young inexperienced one at PL level (and another they only just signed to play at this level).

2 CF’s is too short for this level as @WeAreTheWolvesII says, but West Ham have two and Antonio is only classed as one because he’s been forced in to the 9 role as West Ham had no other viable option for several years. Their attributes are obviously different but he was no more a 9 than Hwang is a few years ago.

The only place West Ham have more depth than us is goalkeeper, which is a good job as they were both on the bench Sunday, something people would have spat feathers about here.

Sure, they may well do some more business this window but then so may we. But let’s not be so insular as to think we’re the only team in the PL without a full 25 man squad of senior players.

 

[Fenrir_]

Right, so people disregard the Man City comparison so let’s look at West Ham instead.

This disregards injuries for both as they have their fair share too and we’re taking about squads not players who are currently available.

XI: (both 4-2-3-1 for a direct comparison)

Sa	Fabianski
Coufal	Semedo
Zouma	Collins
Aguerd	Kilman
Cresswell	RAN
Rice	Neves
Soucek	Moutinho
Fornals	Neto
Lanzini	Podence
Bowen	Guedes
Scamacca	Jimenez

Bench/Squad:

Keepers:
Areola	Sarkic
Randolph
Fullbacks:
Johnson	Jonny
CB’s:
Dawson	Boly
Ogbonna	Gomes
	Mosquera
CM’s:
Downes	Dendoncker
Coventry	Ronan
	Cundle
Forwards:
Cornet	MGW
Benrahma	Traore
Antonio	Chiquinho
	Hwang

On the left is a squad that people laud as having done excellent business compared to the one on the right which has apparently been mismanaged and let get in to a mess.

Now that’s West Ham’s squad from their own website so the players they class as first team squad. Ours is the same although I’ve got Ronan instead of Jordao based on the fact Ronan has been with the squad and Jordao hasn’t.

So we can argue about quality, but the idea that we’re short on depth but we’re no shorter than a team that many on here have lauded is disingenuous.

We’re so short at CM but the club that people reckoned were the best challengers to the top 6 last year and perhaps again this have Downes and Coventry as their only other CM options. Which is, yes, 4 CM’s including a young inexperienced one at PL level (and another they only just signed to play at this level).

2 CF’s is too short for this level as @WeAreTheWolvesII says, but West Ham have two and Antonio is only classed as one because he’s been forced in to the 9 role as West Ham had no other viable option for several years. Their attributes are obviously different but he was no more a 9 than Hwang is a few years ago.

The only place West Ham have more depth than us is goalkeeper, which is a good job as they were both on the bench Sunday, something people would have spat feathers about here.

Sure, they may well do some more business this window but then so may we. But let’s not be so insular as to think we’re the only team in the PL without a full 25 man squad of senior players.

Love it... but why have we swapped keepers with them?!

 

[Chris H]

Love it... but why have we swapped keepers with them?!

I cleared a cell and it must have switched them without me noticing!

Edited now, cheers.

 

[Fenrir_]

I cleared a cell and it must have switched them without me noticing!

Edited now, cheers.

Ah, "computer error"!!

It's a good comparison though and I'd imagine we'd see similar if you compared us to Leicester or most other sides with designs on getting near the European spots. Think it was you who said it but fans notice where the potential problems are at their own club without paying attention to the fact that pretty much every other club also has a similar issue somewhere. Taking Leicester again, up front they've got a pensioner they rely on for goals and a striker that has had one decent season in his career to date, beyond that they're struggling and that's without the dark cloud looming over their squad with all the players that are coming towards the end of their contracts

 

[Hoganstolemywife]

Right, so people disregard the Man City comparison so let’s look at West Ham instead.

This disregards injuries for both as they have their fair share too and we’re taking about squads not players who are currently available.

XI: (both 4-2-3-1 for a direct comparison)

Fabianski	Sa
Coufal	Semedo
Zouma	Collins
Aguerd	Kilman
Cresswell	RAN
Rice	Neves
Soucek	Moutinho
Fornals	Neto
Lanzini	Podence
Bowen	Guedes
Scamacca	Jimenez

Bench/Squad:

Keepers:
Areola	Sarkic
Randolph
Fullbacks:
Johnson	Jonny
CB’s:
Dawson	Boly
Ogbonna	Gomes
	Mosquera
CM’s:
Downes	Dendoncker
Coventry	Ronan
	Cundle
Forwards:
Cornet	MGW
Benrahma	Traore
Antonio	Chiquinho
	Hwang

On the left is a squad that people laud as having done excellent business compared to the one on the right which has apparently been mismanaged and let get in to a mess.

Now that’s West Ham’s squad from their own website so the players they class as first team squad. Ours is the same although I’ve got Ronan instead of Jordao based on the fact Ronan has been with the squad and Jordao hasn’t.

So we can argue about quality, but the idea that we’re short on depth but we’re no shorter than a team that many on here have lauded is disingenuous.

We’re so short at CM but the club that people reckoned were the best challengers to the top 6 last year and perhaps again this have Downes and Coventry as their only other CM options. Which is, yes, 4 CM’s including a young inexperienced one at PL level (and another they only just signed to play at this level).

2 CF’s is too short for this level as @WeAreTheWolvesII says, but West Ham have two and Antonio is only classed as one because he’s been forced in to the 9 role as West Ham had no other viable option for several years. Their attributes are obviously different but he was no more a 9 than Hwang is a few years ago.

The only place West Ham have more depth than us is goalkeeper, which is a good job as they were both on the bench Sunday, something people would have spat feathers about here.

Sure, they may well do some more business this window but then so may we. But let’s not be so insular as to think we’re the only team in the PL without a full 25 man squad of senior players.

Excellent post

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

Right, so people disregard the Man City comparison so let’s look at West Ham instead.

This disregards injuries for both as they have their fair share too and we’re taking about squads not players who are currently available.

XI: (both 4-2-3-1 for a direct comparison)

Fabianski	Sa
Coufal	Semedo
Zouma	Collins
Aguerd	Kilman
Cresswell	RAN
Rice	Neves
Soucek	Moutinho
Fornals	Neto
Lanzini	Podence
Bowen	Guedes
Scamacca	Jimenez

Bench/Squad:

Keepers:
Areola	Sarkic
Randolph
Fullbacks:
Johnson	Jonny
CB’s:
Dawson	Boly
Ogbonna	Gomes
	Mosquera
CM’s:
Downes	Dendoncker
Coventry	Ronan
	Cundle
Forwards:
Cornet	MGW
Benrahma	Traore
Antonio	Chiquinho
	Hwang

On the left is a squad that people laud as having done excellent business compared to the one on the right which has apparently been mismanaged and let get in to a mess.

Now that’s West Ham’s squad from their own website so the players they class as first team squad. Ours is the same although I’ve got Ronan instead of Jordao based on the fact Ronan has been with the squad and Jordao hasn’t.

So we can argue about quality, but the idea that we’re short on depth but we’re no shorter than a team that many on here have lauded is disingenuous.

We’re so short at CM but the club that people reckoned were the best challengers to the top 6 last year and perhaps again this have Downes and Coventry as their only other CM options. Which is, yes, 4 CM’s including a young inexperienced one at PL level (and another they only just signed to play at this level).

2 CF’s is too short for this level as @WeAreTheWolvesII says, but West Ham have two and Antonio is only classed as one because he’s been forced in to the 9 role as West Ham had no other viable option for several years. Their attributes are obviously different but he was no more a 9 than Hwang is a few years ago.

The only place West Ham have more depth than us is goalkeeper, which is a good job as they were both on the bench Sunday, something people would have spat feathers about here.

Sure, they may well do some more business this window but then so may we. But let’s not be so insular as to think we’re the only team in the PL without a full 25 man squad of senior players.

I get your point but I don't think anybody would argue that West Ham's squad is great?

A few points I would challenge. Firstly Antonio is now a proper number nine so you can rightly say he wasn't in the past but the reality is he is a good one now. So, they have two (very good it seems) centre-forwards in Antonio and Scamacca. We have one. That's a massive difference when analysing a squad and something I don't think that should be brushed over.

They are short on central midfield. They didn't sign Alex Kral who disappointed and lost Mark Noble so the reality is that they had four central midfielders last year, they now have three. That's not good enough but I bet it's something they address considering we know they had a £33m offer for Onana accepted.

Similarly, it's quite good timing that you can say they have four centre-backs a day after they sell Issa Diop, who would've made their centre-back depth the same as ours and the quality is clearly better.

I also think the 'they may well do some more business but so may we' is doing a lot here. I think deep down we know they will do more and we'll be lucky to get two players in.

Ultimately we can only judge at the end of the window and we shall see. The reality is West Ham had a stronger squad than us last season and finished above us.

So their squad is bad now, it hasn't always been bad. They could probably have done with another player here or there but Wolves fans frustration is build up over having not signed a centre-back for four years until Collins and not a central midfielder since the first Premier League year.

They are weak at this specific moment but it hasn't been a major problem for them over the years. (maybe with the exception of up top)

 

[Chris H]

Ah, "computer error"!!

It's a good comparison though and I'd imagine we'd see similar if you compared us to Leicester or most other sides with designs on getting near the European spots. Think it was you who said it but fans notice where the potential problems are at their own club without paying attention to the fact that pretty much every other club also has a similar issue somewhere. Taking Leicester again, up front they've got a pensioner they rely on for goals and a striker that has had one decent season in his career to date, beyond that they're struggling and that's without the dark cloud looming over their squad with all the players that are coming towards the end of their contracts

Yep, definitely computer error, not my fault!

Agreed, we always pick out other teams strengths against our deficiencies. The reality is most mid table teams, even some top one, are deficient somewhere.

 

[Chris H]

I get your point but I don't think anybody would argue that West Ham's squad is great?

A few points I would challenge. Firstly Antonio is now a proper number nine so you can rightly say he wasn't in the past but the reality is he is a good one now. So, they have two (very good it seems) centre-forwards in Antonio and Scamacca. We have one. That's a massive difference when analysing a squad and something I don't think that should be brushed over.

They are short on central midfield. They didn't sign Alex Kral who disappointed and lost Mark Noble so the reality is that they had four central midfielders last year, they now have three. That's not good enough but I bet it's something they address considering we know they had a £33m offer for Onana accepted.

Similarly, it's quite good timing that you can say they have four centre-backs a day after they sell Issa Diop, who would've made their centre-back depth the same as ours and the quality is clearly better.

I also think the 'they may well do some more business but so may we' is doing a lot here. I think deep down we know they will do more and we'll be lucky to get two players in.

Ultimately we can only judge at the end of the window and we shall see. The reality is West Ham had a stronger squad than us last season and finished above us.

So their squad is bad now, it hasn't always been bad. They could probably have done with another player here or there but Wolves fans frustration is build up over having not signed a centre-back for four years until Collins and not a central midfielder since the first Premier League year.

They are weak at this specific moment but it hasn't been a major problem for them over the years. (maybe with the exception of up top)

Most think they’ve done very good business for 4 or 5 windows now but their squad is still only as above is my point. I don’t think it was vastly better last season where they still ended up with depth problems across the defence and were massively reliant on Rice and Soucek staying fit and in form in CM.

Even if Antonio is now a 9, they still only have two forwards and you said us signing a 2nd would still leave us light as you need more than 2 ideally. I doubt they’ll get a 3rd on top of Scamacca and Antonio (who I can still see playing out wide some games). When you consider Antonio is injury prone too they’re still as light as us so long as we bring a CF in like we’re supposed to be doing.

They probably will address CM but they’ll still have Downes (unproven at the level) and Coventry (inexperienced) as 4th and 5th choice much like we already have Ronan and Cundle even before we potentially bring another in.

CB I haven’t intentionally done it a day after Diop was sold however they were whoring him out last season per transfer rumours so he was only added depth almost by accident. I think they’ll bring another CB in but probably more so because of Aguerd’s injury than because they’ll think they need 5 when all are fit.

I don’t think it’s a guarantee they do much more business than us between now and the end of the window, they’ve done a lot already just to get to a squad that’s comparable to us in depth currently.

I reckon we’re probably after similar positions, CM and forward as they’re looking to flog Benrahma too apparently.

Like you say, it’ll be clearer at the end of the window but I think if you did a side by side comparison between us and most mid table sides most will be similar in numbers. Let’s see though.

P.S - I wasn’t intentionally calling you out with the CF thing, I’d just read your comments before I posted and it’s a view that’s taken regularly on here (me included) that you want more than 2 CF’s but the reality is most teams only start with one so having 3 players who are specialised in one position is potentially overkill and it’s more likely you’d have 2 or maybe even one and then forwards who can play across the line like Guedes and Hwang can do for us in Jimenez absence.

I’d be happy to end the window with our current squad numbers, albeit hopefully it’s a new CM in place of one of Ronan or Cundle (with the other being 5th choice which I think is fine for our level) and a CF probably in place of one of MGW or Traore if either leave (if both go then I’d want another forward too).

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

It's not size it is just unbalanced, wide forwards and CBs are we well stocked, still arguably 1 over laden at CB in a 4. CM and ST we are thin.

But yeah people don't really look at other clubs enough on here. I've said before larger squad means average players.

I guess technically we have a pretty standard sized squad but the reality is the huge drop off between the starting eleven and the replacements. The last two seasons have highlighted that gulf quite clearly.

Three proven midfielders and one proven center forward is simply not good enough for a club with alleged aspirations for Europe.

There should be a huge drop off, because with our wage bill that means our starters would be bang average.