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The same old, same old, repeated arguments transfer thread

Dan G WWFC

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Seen a lot of him playing for Wales. Never thought "oo, I'd love to see him at Wolves." But to use that most useless of office jargon, 'we are, where we are.'


He's at the level where he's a really good championship player but a bit meh in the prem. As a back up option he'll be decent. Big step up from Hoover
 

WolfInSheep'sClothing

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Buy to sell is a very good model and has been used for years by the 3 big Portuguese clubs and Dortmund successfully.

The reasons those clubs are so successful at it is they have excellent backroom staff and contacts who identify and target the next crop of young quality players with a high resale value and are renowned for developing those players and not standing in their way when the big boys come calling.

We don't have either of that and appear to be going backwards. I completely understand the need to be self sufficient but we desperately need a good couple of transfer window's to get the buzz back. The saying "speculate to accumulate" is very apt here and an investment company should have no problem realising it imo
In the last year we have signed Chiquinho, Ait-Nouri and Sa, that clearly show that our scouting still finds high quality players. It will be interesting to see if we can add to that Mosquera when he finally gets a chance to play.
We identified Vitinha. We didn't sign him because thou shalt not play anybody other than moutinho. He's now worth a ton.
I don't get the idea that we can't find good young talent. It is so easily to prove it wrong.
 

Ewok vs Wolf

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Read somewhere that finding a right back is the easiest position to find at the moment
Semedo has been consistently good for us but I did expect more for the fee paid and his pedigree. If we could get over 20m given his age and length of contract and needing funds to invest elsewhere we definetly should be looking to move him on
 

WickedWolfie

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I'd sell Semedo without hesitation if we could get £20-25m.

He's a good player but the reality is right-backs are easy to find. If we did buy Roberts, we probably wouldn't notice the difference.

Semedo is obviously a better player than Roberts but the latter could do a job.

If it's Roberts & £15-20m to put towards a defender/midfielder OR Semedo, I definitely sell Semedo.

It doesn't have to be Roberts either, I'm sure you could find a lot of good right-backs in the £5-10m range.
When did we last play a rightback as opposed to right wingback? It may well have been Shamberk's last game in charge.
 

Woburn Wolf

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Something I think considering is the incoming on our transfer windows without the benefit of hindsight, and also considering whether at the time, they could be considered good business. Some examples:
  • Ait Nouri - clearly talented, good reputation, good investment potential, low risk, can argue good business
  • Sa - reputation as a solid keeper at Olympiacos, however played 2nd or even 3rd fiddle to Patricio in the national side, moderate risk so 'ok' business
  • Trincao - Barca player, youth and snr international, technically gifted, loan to buy option, huge ceiling, low risk, can argue good business
  • Mosquera - Columbian Youth International, didn't cost much, good investment potential, low risk, can argue good business
  • Chiquinho - same profile as Mosquera, low risk, can argue good business
  • Bolla - similar to Mosquera and Chiquinho, maybe not as high ceiling, so 'ok' business
  • Hwang - S. Korea International, 2 decent seasons with Salzburg, but flopped at RB Leipzig, loan to buy, so 'ok' business at that point, decision to buy in Jan, not good business
  • Cutrone - established youth and senior international, good record with Milan, high ceiling, cost not extortionate, low risk, so can argue good business
  • Toti - complete unknown, loaned immediately to Grasshoppers, WTF, not good business
  • Silva - 'Generational Talent, established youth international, hardly played senior football, high ceiling, insane transfer fee, high risk, not good business
  • Semedo - senior international, solid player for Benfica and Barca, paid market rate at the time, low risk, 'ok' business
  • Podence - youth and senior international, can be talented when he wants to be, however indifferent season at Olympiacos, useless at Sporting, paid over market rate, not good business
  • Neto - youth international, complete unknown, barely played senior football, potential high ceiling, paid way over market rate, high risk, not good business
  • Vallejo - youth international, had already been loaned out by Real Madrid twice, loan, medium risk, maybe 'ok' business
Without the benefit of hindsight none of the above really points to 'incompetence' or a recruitment team that doesn't know what they're doing, just that it proves that pure numbers, stats, xG, (blah etc) don't lead to a good signing. Nor does it show a recruitment team not attempting to build a good football team, or neglecting to do so. The above is what we know, who knows what deals were being discussed that didn't happen.

Another point worth making is that professional footballers now are considering their ENTIRE careers (and as Neves has pointed out these are very short) and the monetisation of those careers.

The Premier League is the most intense, aggressive, physical (and arguably even now technical) football league in the world that has swallowed up and spat out many incredibly talented footballers to the detriment of their careers, and subsequent earning potential.

Any footballer in any other league in the world is going to be considering whether their style of play suits the PL, whether they're ready for the PL, what the potential risk is to their earning potential is if they don't make it etc. Its not as simple as wanting to play in the 'best' league in the world, so players need to be convinced its worth the risk when they're balancing up a decision on their earning potential (and of course, unfortunately, the earning potential for their agents).

As an example I'm happy for Vitinha because he's managed to see his time at Wolves as a 'blip' and fortunately his spell in the PL hasn't affected his potential earnings or his mindset. Maybe he'll come back to the PL when he's ready, or he may decide his style of play is better suited elsewhere (but still keep his earning potential).

Cutrone, however, is an example of a player with huge potential who was chewed up and destroyed by the pressures of the PL, and destroyed the mindset of someone who clearly is a confidence player. If he'd scored that sitter against Man City who knows........

In hindsight, have many of these signings strengthened the first team?

Unfortunately not, and its absolutely ok to call this out and discuss why and what went wrong.

But I do think its unfair to criticise the club for not trying, or to criticise them for running the club like a business. Whether we as fans like it or not, with the sums of money involved, this is what they are.
I do not agree with every one of your player assessments but in general you make a good point.
 

CologneWolf

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It increasingly looks like a ruse to mask the fact that they are not seriously looking for anyone which involves spending money.
We will never get this player yet they can say they tried.
Not sure why everyone can’t see that.
Do you actually believe the top brass are sitting around the boardroom identifying targets to pretend to try for(that they have no intention of signing) just so they can say to the fans We tried?

If that’s the case why even pretend to try at all?
 
D

Deleted member sbk12944

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In the last year we have signed Chiquinho, Ait-Nouri and Sa, that clearly show that our scouting still finds high quality players. It will be interesting to see if we can add to that Mosquera when he finally gets a chance to play.
We identified Vitinha. We didn't sign him because thou shalt not play anybody other than moutinho. He's now worth a ton.
I don't get the idea that we can't find good young talent. It is so easily to prove it wrong.
So what you’re saying is we still rely on Mendes as everyone you name is either a Mendes client or linked to Mendes apart from Mosquera.
 

Sussex Wolf

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Something I think considering is the incoming on our transfer windows without the benefit of hindsight, and also considering whether at the time, they could be considered good business. Some examples:
  • Ait Nouri - clearly talented, good reputation, good investment potential, low risk, can argue good business
  • Sa - reputation as a solid keeper at Olympiacos, however played 2nd or even 3rd fiddle to Patricio in the national side, moderate risk so 'ok' business
  • Trincao - Barca player, youth and snr international, technically gifted, loan to buy option, huge ceiling, low risk, can argue good business
  • Mosquera - Columbian Youth International, didn't cost much, good investment potential, low risk, can argue good business
  • Chiquinho - same profile as Mosquera, low risk, can argue good business
  • Bolla - similar to Mosquera and Chiquinho, maybe not as high ceiling, so 'ok' business
  • Hwang - S. Korea International, 2 decent seasons with Salzburg, but flopped at RB Leipzig, loan to buy, so 'ok' business at that point, decision to buy in Jan, not good business
  • Cutrone - established youth and senior international, good record with Milan, high ceiling, cost not extortionate, low risk, so can argue good business
  • Toti - complete unknown, loaned immediately to Grasshoppers, WTF, not good business
  • Silva - 'Generational Talent, established youth international, hardly played senior football, high ceiling, insane transfer fee, high risk, not good business
  • Semedo - senior international, solid player for Benfica and Barca, paid market rate at the time, low risk, 'ok' business
  • Podence - youth and senior international, can be talented when he wants to be, however indifferent season at Olympiacos, useless at Sporting, paid over market rate, not good business
  • Neto - youth international, complete unknown, barely played senior football, potential high ceiling, paid way over market rate, high risk, not good business
  • Vallejo - youth international, had already been loaned out by Real Madrid twice, loan, medium risk, maybe 'ok' business
Without the benefit of hindsight none of the above really points to 'incompetence' or a recruitment team that doesn't know what they're doing, just that it proves that pure numbers, stats, xG, (blah etc) don't lead to a good signing. Nor does it show a recruitment team not attempting to build a good football team, or neglecting to do so. The above is what we know, who knows what deals were being discussed that didn't happen.

Another point worth making is that professional footballers now are considering their ENTIRE careers (and as Neves has pointed out these are very short) and the monetisation of those careers.

The Premier League is the most intense, aggressive, physical (and arguably even now technical) football league in the world that has swallowed up and spat out many incredibly talented footballers to the detriment of their careers, and subsequent earning potential.

Any footballer in any other league in the world is going to be considering whether their style of play suits the PL, whether they're ready for the PL, what the potential risk is to their earning potential is if they don't make it etc. Its not as simple as wanting to play in the 'best' league in the world, so players need to be convinced its worth the risk when they're balancing up a decision on their earning potential (and of course, unfortunately, the earning potential for their agents).

As an example I'm happy for Vitinha because he's managed to see his time at Wolves as a 'blip' and fortunately his spell in the PL hasn't affected his potential earnings or his mindset. Maybe he'll come back to the PL when he's ready, or he may decide his style of play is better suited elsewhere (but still keep his earning potential).

Cutrone, however, is an example of a player with huge potential who was chewed up and destroyed by the pressures of the PL, and destroyed the mindset of someone who clearly is a confidence player. If he'd scored that sitter against Man City who knows........

In hindsight, have many of these signings strengthened the first team?

Unfortunately not, and its absolutely ok to call this out and discuss why and what went wrong.

But I do think its unfair to criticise the club for not trying, or to criticise them for running the club like a business. Whether we as fans like it or not, with the sums of money involved, this is what they are.

Agree with your broad logic and was thinking something similar the other day when thinking back to last summer and Trincao.

Hindsight makes everyone a football genius and while it’s a good way to assess how good the recruitment strategy has been, it’s not necessarily a good way to assess the strength of intent. That’s important because a lot of the criticism and concern expressed, including myself, is focused on intent and ambition, or rather the apparent lack of it.
 

WolfInSheep'sClothing

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So what you’re saying is we still rely on Mendes as everyone you name is either a Mendes client or linked to Mendes apart from Mosquera.
If by mendes you mean Gestifute, the company Fosun have shares in?
Why would I have a problem with that, when it is exactly that relationship that has got us anywhere?
 
D

Deleted member sbk12944

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If by mendes you mean Gestifute, the company Fosun have shares in?
Why would I have a problem with that, when it is exactly that relationship that has got us anywhere?
You mentioned our scouting, I just pointed out that it’s Mendes not our scouting that has come up with our top players.
 

WickedWolfie

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Something I think considering is the incoming on our transfer windows without the benefit of hindsight, and also considering whether at the time, they could be considered good business. Some examples:
  • Ait Nouri - clearly talented, good reputation, good investment potential, low risk, can argue good business
  • Sa - reputation as a solid keeper at Olympiacos, however played 2nd or even 3rd fiddle to Patricio in the national side, moderate risk so 'ok' business
  • Trincao - Barca player, youth and snr international, technically gifted, loan to buy option, huge ceiling, low risk, can argue good business
  • Mosquera - Columbian Youth International, didn't cost much, good investment potential, low risk, can argue good business
  • Chiquinho - same profile as Mosquera, low risk, can argue good business
  • Bolla - similar to Mosquera and Chiquinho, maybe not as high ceiling, so 'ok' business
  • Hwang - S. Korea International, 2 decent seasons with Salzburg, but flopped at RB Leipzig, loan to buy, so 'ok' business at that point, decision to buy in Jan, not good business
  • Cutrone - established youth and senior international, good record with Milan, high ceiling, cost not extortionate, low risk, so can argue good business
  • Toti - complete unknown, loaned immediately to Grasshoppers, WTF, not good business
  • Silva - 'Generational Talent, established youth international, hardly played senior football, high ceiling, insane transfer fee, high risk, not good business
  • Semedo - senior international, solid player for Benfica and Barca, paid market rate at the time, low risk, 'ok' business
  • Podence - youth and senior international, can be talented when he wants to be, however indifferent season at Olympiacos, useless at Sporting, paid over market rate, not good business
  • Neto - youth international, complete unknown, barely played senior football, potential high ceiling, paid way over market rate, high risk, not good business
  • Vallejo - youth international, had already been loaned out by Real Madrid twice, loan, medium risk, maybe 'ok' business
Without the benefit of hindsight none of the above really points to 'incompetence' or a recruitment team that doesn't know what they're doing, just that it proves that pure numbers, stats, xG, (blah etc) don't lead to a good signing. Nor does it show a recruitment team not attempting to build a good football team, or neglecting to do so. The above is what we know, who knows what deals were being discussed that didn't happen.

Another point worth making is that professional footballers now are considering their ENTIRE careers (and as Neves has pointed out these are very short) and the monetisation of those careers.

The Premier League is the most intense, aggressive, physical (and arguably even now technical) football league in the world that has swallowed up and spat out many incredibly talented footballers to the detriment of their careers, and subsequent earning potential.

Any footballer in any other league in the world is going to be considering whether their style of play suits the PL, whether they're ready for the PL, what the potential risk is to their earning potential is if they don't make it etc. Its not as simple as wanting to play in the 'best' league in the world, so players need to be convinced its worth the risk when they're balancing up a decision on their earning potential (and of course, unfortunately, the earning potential for their agents).

As an example I'm happy for Vitinha because he's managed to see his time at Wolves as a 'blip' and fortunately his spell in the PL hasn't affected his potential earnings or his mindset. Maybe he'll come back to the PL when he's ready, or he may decide his style of play is better suited elsewhere (but still keep his earning potential).

Cutrone, however, is an example of a player with huge potential who was chewed up and destroyed by the pressures of the PL, and destroyed the mindset of someone who clearly is a confidence player. If he'd scored that sitter against Man City who knows........

In hindsight, have many of these signings strengthened the first team?

Unfortunately not, and its absolutely ok to call this out and discuss why and what went wrong.

But I do think its unfair to criticise the club for not trying, or to criticise them for running the club like a business. Whether we as fans like it or not, with the sums of money involved, this is what they are.
I agree the broad thrust of your post but not all the detail. As an example Trincao flopped at Barca in 19/20 almost as badly as Hwang did in Germany.
 

Bill McCai

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Thought this article - about Grasshoppers not having many players available for pre season was interesting;

GC is looking for a sports director - and itself
The Chinese project with the Grasshoppers is back on square one. Three weeks before the start of the championship, players and officials are missing – and there is no plan.

Stephan Ramming
06/25/2022, 9.45 p.m.

He sometimes gets his own players on his own initiative: GC President Sky Sun.
He sometimes fetches his own players on his own initiative: GC President Sky Sun.
Simon Tanner / NZZ

Giorgio Contini is pretty much alone right now. It's Thursday evening, the GC trainer is in the car driving home. "Sympathy? I don't need pity," he says into the phone, "I'm an optimist, we work very well and with joy, the atmosphere in the team is positive."

In the team? Twelve players will come to the first training session on the penultimate Friday. Contini then lets himself be filmed drinking an espresso and announcing the extension of the contract with Giotto Morandi. As an actor, Contini is not without talent. It also helps to embrace the role he has to play as a GC coach.

On Friday, Contini does not yet know that sports director Seyi Olofinjana has already been fired. The corresponding announcement, in which Managing Director Jimmy Berisha is also said goodbye, will not follow until Monday. "Because of different views on the future direction," as it says. Contini says: "I'm an employee of the club, the strategy is determined by the management and the owners."

GC President Sky Sun would be the man to report on "the future direction". He says he doesn't want to say anything. This also applies to Olofinjana and Berisha. Both do not want to explain the “differences of opinion”. That is not necessary either, the conflicts have been open for months.

The Chinese Fosun Group has the bills from Zurich settled on time; The past season alone is said to have produced a deficit of well over CHF 10 million. However, what is produced in the Zurich branch seems to be of secondary interest. The main branch is in Wolverhampton. Jeff Shi is the boss of the Wolves, Shi reports to Sun. Sun was tired of arguing with Olofinjana and Berisha about which players and goals to continue.

Sun, who has been running the business from China for months, brought players like the Chinese Li Lei to GC on his own initiative, Olofinjana had neither experience nor room for maneuver, and Berisha repeatedly ran into a wall when he called for more Swiss players and stronger local identification . Sun recently sent Olofinjana to the GC juniors, which didn't go down well there.

Youth boss Roman Hangartner, Marc Hodel, Ricardo Cabanas and Zoltan Kadar left the club in a short time. The chief scout is currently Kevin Cruickshank, a man from Wolverhampton but without any experience in the Swiss market. The HR manager is a Chinese woman from England.

Sun is said to be looking intensively for a new sports director, he should have a man from Italy in mind, according to the industry. Italy, England, Nigeria, China, Portugal - with the Grasshoppers it's probably the same.

"If management works well together, success is also possible," says Contini. He hopes that the squad will be complete as soon as possible, he would like to see reinforcements in every part of the team to provide the necessary breadth. In the first friendly, GC lost 5-1 to Schaffhausen. The championship starts in three weeks.
 

WeAreTheWolvesII

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He's no where near a 30m player.
20m is good business imo
I thought that but he is that level IMO.

There are a few comparisons when looking at Championship proven players over the years.

We paid £18m for Adama, Jarrod Bowen went to West Ham for £20m but the most obvious one is James Maddison going to Leicester for £20m.

MGW has virtually the same stats as Maddison did in their respective seasons and they were near enough the same age.

So, if he cost £20m four years ago then MGW has to cost more now because prices have generally gone up. I'd say you'd be looking at £25m as a starting point.

Then, unlike Middlesbrough (Traore), Hull (Bowen) or Norwich (Maddison) in the three examples above, we are a Premier League side. Whilst they probably weren't forced to sell, the reality is that Championship clubs always have to cash in at a certain price. We don't - or shouldn't. It should cost more when you're buying from a Premier League club. Therefore, I think you've got to be looking at a deal worth £30m minimum IMO.

If we sell MGW for less than that it's because we're desperate, in my opinion.

What's the market for proven quality Championship players? About £10-15m? Harry Wilson has just gone for £12m. The likes of Rhodes, Assombalonga McCormack all went in that price range.

Worst case scenario and MGW fails with Wolves, we would still be able to sell him for £10-15m based on what he's done at Sheffield United and his age.

Alternatively, the upside is huge. If MGW does well, which has to be the most likely option based on his performances, we are looking at someone who could be worth £40m minimum.

So, yeah I think selling for £20m would be insane and it would suggest to me that Fosun are desperate for cash and unable to think for the long-term as they claim they do.
 
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