The Midfield

[manchesterwolf17]

I've touched upon this within a reply to a different forum, so apologies if you've read the same thing twice.

But I wanted to discuss the midfield. Whilst we all know the need for a RWB is key, for me, whilst we continue failing to address the need for a different type of midfielder, we will always be held back in games against opposition like tonight.

I would say since getting promoted, it's been an issue. One that I first recognised in the 0-2 defeat to Watford at Molineux. It feels like so often, defensive minded sides have a very simple and effective game plan, and one in which we very seldom find the answer to breaking down.

Neves and Moutinho are excellent footballers, and I'm sure Vitinha will be a good addition too, and whilst in certain games they're ideal, it seems almost inevitable that we are going to be facing the same issues against the likes of Brighton or Burnley this season when it comes to being able to break down their tactics. The sort of games that we picked up a point from instead of three last season.

What we lack is a midfielder capable of driving through the middle. Forcing the game onto the opposition. Doucoure felt like the obvious answer to me. A better Alfred N'Diaye, if you will, who I thought was perfect when we were in the Championship in terms of offering this exact sort of alternative in certain games.

Will we address this? I don't know, my best guess is that our focus will be so much on a wing back, that this is potentially overlooked.

I wanted to hear what others felt in regards to this? It irritates me because when I see how much better Everton looked on Sunday, it illustrates just how vital the role, or at least having that alternative is within the squad. Until we do, I can foresee several similar games to tonight's where the away side can restrict us, relatively comfortably, to very little attacks, so long as they double up on Traore.

 

[JOSWolf]

Totally agree with this and it needs sorting just like the wing backs.

 

[Stratman Wolves]

I still miss Big Alf. Should kept him.

 

[Royal wolf]

Totally agree. We need that something different, our centre mids are all too similar. Clearly not a priority for nuno seeing as it’s been the same for the last 3 years which is disappointing

 

[Deleted member 4152]

I can’t believe Nuno cannot see this. It is so obvious

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Need someone that can actually dribble with the ball for 20 yards

 

[Leigh72]

Sometimes you need to up the tempo, we seem to be unable to do that .

 

[JadeWolf]

It’s difficult because Nuno likes how we play and set up and the type of midfielders we have work well. If we signed a different type of player we’d perhaps need to change how we play.

 

[waggys left foot]

Managers decide on tactics and formation -Nuno has clear and strong opinions on this.Can't see him changing .What he will do is try to find players who can play the system better -in Nuno terms with fewer mistakes.

Unfortunately so far this window has not addressed that issue.

 

[Royal wolf]

It’s difficult because Nuno likes how we play and set up and the type of midfielders we have work well. If we signed a different type of player we’d perhaps need to change how we play.

I think the midfielder everyone craves is for when it isn’t going well. A plan B so to speak.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

It's the formation linked to his defensive style.

In a 3-4-3 you can't have the two midfielders moving out of position. A two-man midfield in today's game generally have to sit deep. A failure to do so means you are leaving huge gaps and it would ruin the entire structure that has made us a good team and excellent on the counter.

But, if they're staying in their zones, which I think they have to, it means our only major threats come out wide.

And, as a result, we only ever have five players in attacking moves at best. In truth, one of those was usually negated by the fact that Jonny isn't a huge threat and what he did do was predictable (a right-footed player on the left, so cutting in). It's easy to defend if you want as you can force the play wide and then we cross to what's usually two to three men in the box.

I don't see how we can turn into this progressive side in this formation.

Even in it's simplest form, the way it differs to most is that we have Coady in the team ahead of an attacking player, or at worst a Dendoncker.

Quite why we aren't flexible I don't know. We know 3-4-3 and playing on the counter works a lot. We also know it doesn't work on occasions.

Patricio
RB - Boly - Saiss - Marcal
Neves - Moutinho
Traore - Podence - Jota
Jimenez

That in a 4-2-3-1 is some team! Obviously we need a full-back and we would upgrade Saiss in an ideal world but that team is very good and the need for a different midfielder is removed because we have four attacking players instead of three.

That's not to say we should abandon a back three, we shouldn't. But be flexible.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

It's the formation linked to his defensive style.

In a 3-4-3 you can't have the two midfielders moving out of position. A two-man midfield in today's game generally have to sit deep. A failure to do so means you are leaving huge gaps and it would ruin the entire structure that has made us a good team and excellent on the counter.

But, if they're staying in their zones, which I think they have to, it means our only major threats come out wide.

And, as a result, we only ever have five players in attacking moves at best. In truth, one of those was usually negated by the fact that Jonny isn't a huge threat and what he did do was predictable (a right-footed player on the left, so cutting in). It's easy to defend if you want as you can force the play wide and then we cross to what's usually two to three men in the box.

I don't see how we can turn into this progressive side in this formation.

Even in it's simplest form, the way it differs to most is that we have Coady in the team ahead of an attacking player, or at worst a Dendoncker.

Quite why we aren't flexible I don't know. We know 3-4-3 and playing on the counter works a lot. We also know it doesn't work on occasions.

Patricio
RB - Boly - Saiss - Marcal
Neves - Moutinho
Traore - Podence - Jota
Jimenez

That in a 4-2-3-1 is some team! Obviously we need a full-back and we would upgrade Saiss in an ideal world but that team is very good and the need for a different midfielder is removed because we have four attacking players instead of three.

That's not to say we should abandon a back three, we shouldn't. But be flexible.

Excellent post. Totally agree.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Nuno says he wants us to be more positive.

In that case we need Podence or Neto in front of Moutinho/Neves/Vitinha/Donk. Or we need to bring someone in

We're too samey in the middle and too deep.

 

[Focke Wolf]

It seems to me that in a lot of attacks the ball misses the midfield out completely and goes from the defence to the forwards in a lofted pass. We desperately need an attacking midfielder who can play through the middle when required. It's just another string to the bow in the game.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

It seems to me that in a lot of attacks the ball misses the midfield out completely and goes from the defence to the forwards in a lofted pass. We desperately need an attacking midfielder who can play through the middle when required. It's just another string to the bow in the game.

Exactly. It's not about totally abandoning our principles or preferred formation. Just having another plan when teams deploy the sort of tactics that we've struggled against in the past.

 

[Deleted member 11332]

Sometimes you need to up the tempo, we seem to be unable to do that .

this is it for me aswell, we have one speed the majority of the time we have possession not in transition and it's glacial. No one can tell me our players are not technically good enough to be popping it off one and two touch at speed.

 

[JOSWolf]

I can’t believe Nuno cannot see this. It is so obvious

It is so obvious. We need a top notch box to box central midfield player but never seem to get one or be linked with one.

 

[Stafford]

Didnt we do well against the poorer teams who sat back against us last season? I'm sure Nuno sees how play in a much more complex way than we do. Really don't think hes after a centre mid.

 

[JOSWolf]

It’s difficult because Nuno likes how we play and set up and the type of midfielders we have work well. If we signed a different type of player we’d perhaps need to change how we play.

He's said he wants to change how we play anyway hasnt he? Central midfield players all too similar need something different in there.

 

[Deleted member 11157]

Not sure a defeat to Stoke in the EFL Cup means much but I find a discussion on how we can improve against teams that sit in is quite admissable. Most teams that sit in want to break so focus on hitting a team that breaks ie let them break while we hold a position. The normal take is get a man behind and put a cross in to a target man or have somebody who'll put one in from twenty five yards. Maybe we need a Gascoigne.

 

[JOSWolf]

As much as we slate him a player like Grealish or a Maddison style player would make all the difference for us. This is the sort of player we are crying out for.

 

[Metal Wolf89]

I think when we play with two in the middle they are purely there to be our platform and foundation for the attack. If you look at Liverpools midfield they rarely contribute in goals or assists, they get the ball back and recycle it to the full backs or one of the front three.. to start playing through the middle will require a change in formation which isn't going to happen.

 

[goldeneyed]

I've touched upon this within a reply to a different forum, so apologies if you've read the same thing twice.

But I wanted to discuss the midfield. Whilst we all know the need for a RWB is key, for me, whilst we continue failing to address the need for a different type of midfielder, we will always be held back in games against opposition like tonight.

I would say since getting promoted, it's been an issue. One that I first recognised in the 0-2 defeat to Watford at Molineux. It feels like so often, defensive minded sides have a very simple and effective game plan, and one in which we very seldom find the answer to breaking down.

Neves and Moutinho are excellent footballers, and I'm sure Vitinha will be a good addition too, and whilst in certain games they're ideal, it seems almost inevitable that we are going to be facing the same issues against the likes of Brighton or Burnley this season when it comes to being able to break down their tactics. The sort of games that we picked up a point from instead of three last season.

What we lack is a midfielder capable of driving through the middle. Forcing the game onto the opposition. Doucoure felt like the obvious answer to me. A better Alfred N'Diaye, if you will, who I thought was perfect when we were in the Championship in terms of offering this exact sort of alternative in certain games.

Will we address this? I don't know, my best guess is that our focus will be so much on a wing back, that this is potentially overlooked.

I wanted to hear what others felt in regards to this? It irritates me because when I see how much better Everton looked on Sunday, it illustrates just how vital the role, or at least having that alternative is within the squad. Until we do, I can foresee several similar games to tonight's where the away side can restrict us, relatively comfortably, to very little attacks, so long as they double up on Traore.

Could not agree more. We are too predictable in attack and depend far too much on Adama to provide a spark. Yes Jimenez is wonderful but we need an attacking midfielder who can go past people, create opportunities and SHOOT. As you say this has been a glaring omission under Nuno and although other aspects of our game plan are excellent we cannot keep on having Neves so deep and expect Dendoncker to do what is not natural to him (although he tries hard to fill that void). I agree - we will buy a wing back but I don't see this midfield issue being dealt with. Because of that I can't see us doing better than 7th to 9th this season which would be a wasted opportunity. All our rivals are strengthening intelligently. We have a stopgap replacement for Jonny and a glaring hole where Doherty used to play. Vitinho and Silva are players for the future who will sit on the sub's bench this season. So how about actually strengthening the first team?

 

[Stafford]

As much as we slate him a player like Grealish or a Maddison style player would make all the difference for us. This is the sort of player we are crying out for.

Which is the new Neto /vitor/ jota role?

 

[JOSWolf]

Which is the new Neto /vitor/ jota role?

I see what you mean but they are different to those 3.

 

[Stoichkov]

I think when we play with two in the middle they are purely there to be our platform and foundation for the attack. If you look at Liverpools midfield they rarely contribute in goals or assists, they get the ball back and recycle it to the full backs or one of the front three.. to start playing through the middle will require a change in formation which isn't going to happen.

yes but we should have the option for one of them to become much more offensive against weaker teams that set up banks of four/five. presumably vitinha might be that player soon, or one day. but not at the moment, and dendoncker evidently can't do it. he's good at pressing high, but not carrying the ball through the middle third.

 

[St.Simon.]

Need someone that can actually dribble with the ball for 20 yards

Really? Have you never watched Traore, Neto, Podence, Jota, Jiminez, etc.? We have more "dribblers" than almost any other side in the league.

 

[Fifty Niner]

Managers decide on tactics and formation -Nuno has clear and strong opinions on this.Can't see him changing .What he will do is try to find players who can play the system better -in Nuno terms with fewer mistakes.

Unfortunately so far this window has not addressed that issue.

But Nuno said he wanted us to be more attacking this season, to score more goals and dominate the ball more. This seemed to be the case in the first 40mins v Sheff Utd although it was back to normal v a near second string Stoke side. As was our habit of conceding late goals with crap defending.

 

[reanswolf]

Good OP.

several of us have repeatedly highlighted this only to be advised “it’s the system” we play.
Well it’s not a system that will help us dominate any time soon.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Really? Have you never watched Traore, Neto, Podence, Jota, Jiminez, etc.? We have more "dribblers" than almost any other side in the league.

they don’t play center midfield tho .

be ok if one played in the midfield 3

 

[Deleted member 4008]

Love Wolves and enjoy watching the team play and always will. But if you think bringing in 2 unproven youngsters and Marcal in and losing Doc will improve our chances of moving into top 6 then I think people need to get a reality check. Yes the it's exciting and enjoyable but realistically we need players for the first 11 not the bench to improve us.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

I've touched upon this within a reply to a different forum, so apologies if you've read the same thing twice.

But I wanted to discuss the midfield. Whilst we all know the need for a RWB is key, for me, whilst we continue failing to address the need for a different type of midfielder, we will always be held back in games against opposition like tonight.

I would say since getting promoted, it's been an issue. One that I first recognised in the 0-2 defeat to Watford at Molineux. It feels like so often, defensive minded sides have a very simple and effective game plan, and one in which we very seldom find the answer to breaking down.

Neves and Moutinho are excellent footballers, and I'm sure Vitinha will be a good addition too, and whilst in certain games they're ideal, it seems almost inevitable that we are going to be facing the same issues against the likes of Brighton or Burnley this season when it comes to being able to break down their tactics. The sort of games that we picked up a point from instead of three last season.

What we lack is a midfielder capable of driving through the middle. Forcing the game onto the opposition. Doucoure felt like the obvious answer to me. A better Alfred N'Diaye, if you will, who I thought was perfect when we were in the Championship in terms of offering this exact sort of alternative in certain games.

Will we address this? I don't know, my best guess is that our focus will be so much on a wing back, that this is potentially overlooked.

I wanted to hear what others felt in regards to this? It irritates me because when I see how much better Everton looked on Sunday, it illustrates just how vital the role, or at least having that alternative is within the squad. Until we do, I can foresee several similar games to tonight's where the away side can restrict us, relatively comfortably, to very little attacks, so long as they double up on Traore.

Been saying exactly this for a couple of years, but usually dismissed by the Nuno-can-do-no-wrong brigade as a moaning Minnie.

 

[reanswolf]

Palhinha might have made a difference last night. Just saying -.

 

[Guzeppi]

What midfield?

 

[Tojo the grass]

Really? Have you never watched Traore, Neto, Podence, Jota, Jiminez, etc.? We have more "dribblers" than almost any other side in the league.

That is true, but we seem to go for deep holding midfielders with a good passing range and forwards who are very good at running with the ball, there just seems to be a disconnect at times.

 

[Flea]

Watching Neves playing as deep as yesterday is strange.
It might be the right positioning against a better opponent like Man City or Chelsea...but only in matches like this.
When Neves sits deep against other teams than big four,it always sux.

It´s part of it.The other part is that we are still lacking certain qualities midfield.We simply not have the right players for it.
The central attacking midfielder,the central threat that would add much to our attack IMO.
Practically nothing comes off for us central of the pitch.
Sooner or later we will have to address this.

 

[Guzeppi]

That is true, but we seem to go for deep holding midfielders with a good passing range and forwards who are very good at running with the ball, there just seems to be a disconnect at times.

So we lump it forwards? Sorry, I mean diagonally.

 

[Hugh Jarse]

Imagine a central midfielder who could pick up the ball in his own half and beat a couple of players with ball at his feet?

 

[JOSWolf]

Why was it set up so deep last night? Why was Neves virtually playing in defence? I thought we would move on from this.

 

[JOSWolf]

On another note Everton have invested heavily in proven talent for their midfield and already look a different proposition. Appreciate it was only one game but they looked a way better side at Spurs the other day and one of the main differences was their midfield. I feel we just need that one player that can compliment our other central midfield players and it would help no end.