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The ‘Sustainability’ Paradox

Asthmatic Wolf

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Much has been made of the need to be ‘sustainable’.

Yet as I read that Ruben Neves, who could and should have been the centrepiece of our progression into the elite of the PL, is all but confirming that he is on his way, the fallacy of it all becomes impossible to ignore.

Fosun recognised the importance of disproportionate capital injection when taking over, and spending significant sums to take us from mid table Champ to upper ends Prem. The financial returns available in the Prem has protected or paid off this investment (depending on how you cook your accounts).

Finishing 7th twice, we were arguably a couple of exceptional players away from challenging the top 4. Capital injection. Poor players stick out like a sore thumb in a good team: see Hwang/Dendoncker, or even as I watched AC Milan yday, a Leao vs a Krunic.

The returns available at CL level from qualification alone, ignoring the commercial revenues, the player attraction, and the increased FFP ceiling would more than pay for the capital invested whilst enhancing Fosun’s brand further. Player asset values would increase too. However whenever we have been close, we have backed away, even weakening our squad rather than maintaining continuity or the status quo.

As such this ‘sustainable’ model is a fallacy, diminishing product, brand and asset value, and demonstrating a lack of ambition which drives our best players away.

A simple replication of the Championship approach would likely have provided the impetus to make the final step. Instead, I fear, the lack of investment will see us continue to step the other way. Which is very sad.
 

Stratman Wolves

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They are simply happy taking the money they make in TV revenues and player trading but do just enough (in their eyes) to "be competitive" midtable. It is a nicer version of "young and hungry" but with higher ceiling Iberian lads and not Irish players. That is really what it boils down to, sadly. We missed a big opportunity two years ago to build on a solid foundation.
 

Dan G WWFC

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Main way is to sign players for less then they're worth and sell them for more.

Aka, sell players at the right time and don't hold on to them for too long. Adama.

Don't sign ****. Hwang
 

Starsky

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They're not here to maximise league position (and all that brings with it).

They want to purely exist in the PL and trade players, primarily via Gestifute.As you say, not sure this is sustainable in the longer term as the best players get replaced with inferior ones.
 

DasWolf

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There is something to be said for not spending money badly and throwing insane sums around desperately trying to chase a dream. However, it feels like Fosun have moved from generally smart investment which paid off (see: promotion to PL), to a Moxey-like "invest the bare minimum", even when a bit more smart investment would have meant Europe, top six, and all the rewards that come with that.

Players like Neves can be convinced to stick around for a while if you sell them a project and show them your ambition, which is clearly why Ruben has stuck around as long as he has. If we offered him continental football in EL, I think he may well have stuck around for another season.

The players we would want to keep are the players that can and will want better. If I was in that position, I'd go as well. Why would I spend the best years of a very limited career at a club which is showing no signs of any ambition other than mid table at best PL football, when there are other teams who will offer the things I want.

Even if we get 50M for Neves, you only have to look at the ridiculous waste of money we've shown recently to work out that in all likelihood that money will be spent on utter dross, and it will be a massive downgrade. Look at how well the Jota money was spent. Enough said.

Everton & villa have shown you can spend loads and not move anywhere.

And teams like Southampton etc. have shown that generally when you sell your best young players, you are probably not going to replace them with anyone as good, and the team gets much weaker as a result, so the cash is effectively wasted.

Liverpool selling top talent like Suarez and managing to reinvest that successfully is the exception, not the rule.
 

WolfLing

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Much has been made of the need to be ‘sustainable’.

Yet as I read that Ruben Neves, who could and should have been the centrepiece of our progression into the elite of the PL, is all but confirming that he is on his way, the fallacy of it all becomes impossible to ignore.

Fosun recognised the importance of disproportionate capital injection when taking over, and spending significant sums to take us from mid table Champ to upper ends Prem. The financial returns available in the Prem has protected or paid off this investment (depending on how you cook your accounts).

Finishing 7th twice, we were arguably a couple of exceptional players away from challenging the top 4. Capital injection. Poor players stick out like a sore thumb in a good team: see Hwang/Dendoncker, or even as I watched AC Milan yday, a Leao vs a Krunic.

The returns available at CL level from qualification alone, ignoring the commercial revenues, the player attraction, and the increased FFP ceiling would more than pay for the capital invested whilst enhancing Fosun’s brand further. Player asset values would increase too. However whenever we have been close, we have backed away, even weakening our squad rather than maintaining continuity or the status quo.

As such this ‘sustainable’ model is a fallacy, diminishing product, brand and asset value, and demonstrating a lack of ambition which drives our best players away.

A simple replication of the Championship approach would likely have provided the impetus to make the final step. Instead, I fear, the lack of investment will see us continue to step the other way. Which is very sad.

The issue with 'that final step' is it is so difficult to do and there are no guarantees. The club with the biggest net spent in the last 10 years (United) struggled to finished 6th.

It's not a 'givun' that keeping Traore, or spending in January would have made any difference to our season. Yes, it could have done, but like I say, there are no guarantees.

It's also worth noting that European qualification might have damaged our ability to rebuild this summer, given that it would limit our spending moreso than PL spending rules would. I'm not saying we deliberately failed to qualify for Europe, but the rebuild is more important, so I'm actually glad we've avoided it.

For us, it's probably about staying in touch. Maintaining our status as a club for whom relegation is probably not a concern, but will always compete in that pack between 7th and 12th. That's with clubs like West Ham, Leicester, probably now Newcastle too.

We will then have seasons where everything falls into place. New signings hit the ground running and we are lucky with injuries etc. Very similar to our first few seasons under Nuno, but not at all what's happened in the last 2. Those are the seasons where we finish above par and can potentially push on.
 
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DasWolf

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The issue with 'that final step' is it is so difficult to do and there are no guarantees. The club with the biggest net spent in the last 10 years (United) struggled to finished 6th.

The difference is United made stupid transfers, such as paying insane money for Maguire. It's not a smart recruitment strategy, but a "throw enough money at it and see what sticks" one.

No one is suggesting to blindly throw money away, though Wolves have done plenty of that by themselves. Smart investment at the right time.

Penny pinching on the cusp of Europe has cost a huge amount. Good players leaving, no Europe, loss of revenue from dropping down places.
 

WolfLing

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Penny pinching on the cusp of Europe has cost a huge amount.

Like I say, this is the overall consensus of opinion, but it's still a big what-if.

Of all the players who came to the Premier League in January, who could we have realistically signed?

The players that came in and made a real difference for the teams they signed for like Kulusevski and Guimaraes would never have joined us over Spurs and Newcastle.

Then there's the opinion that keeping Traore would have made a huge difference.

Yet we signed Chiquinho for £3m and he got 3 assists in 200 minutes of football at a time we were playing some of our worst football. Adama had 0 in over 1000 minutes over the period we were performing much better.

Yes, I know it's now all about the stats, but it's impossible to prove either way. It's all what-ifs.
 

ewarwoowar

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They're not here to maximise league position (and all that brings with it).

They want to purely exist in the PL and trade players, primarily via Gestifute.As you say, not sure this is sustainable in the longer term as the best players get replaced with inferior ones.
but that is not what was said when we were promoted,we were aiming to win the premier league within 7 years,i now assume they meant dog years!!we were also touted to being one of the biggest teams in the world.i used to get told i was deluded when discussing this with other fans,but as i used to say to them,i am not saying this it is our owners
 

Chiswick_Wolf

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The issue with 'that final step' is it is so difficult to do and there are no guarantees. The club with the biggest net spent in the last 10 years (United) struggled to finished 6th.

It's not a 'givun' that keeping Traore, or spending in January would have made any difference to our season. Yes, it could have done, but like I say, there are no guarantees.

It's also worth noting that European qualification might have damaged our ability to rebuild this summer, given that it would limit our spending moreso than PL spending rules would. I'm not saying we deliberately failed to qualify for Europe, but the rebuild is more important, so I'm actually glad we've avoided it.

For us, it's probably about staying in touch. Maintaining our status as a club for whom relegation is probably not a concern, but will always compete in that pack between 7th and 12th. That's with clubs like West Ham, Leicester, probably now Newcastle too.

We will then have seasons where everything falls into place. New signings hit the ground running and we are lucky with injuries etc. Very similar to our first few seasons under Nuno, but not at all what's happened in the last 2. Those are the season where we finish above par and can potentially push on.
This is my view. Every choice made is calculated on a risk/reward basis. It's easy to say "we were so close...all we needed was another player", but 1) there is no guarantee that any player will make the difference 2) the cost of the type of player that would on the balance of probability make the difference is extremely significant. >£30m plus all of the wages and fees associated 3) previous financial statements have shown we aren't exactly penny pinching 4) it is soooooo competitive to reach the top 4 every season. Clubs that have far bigger resources than us struggle to do it each season. If it goes wrong for them, they still have the commercial revenue streams to claw a large chunk back. We do not.

It seems Fosun are currently comfortable with banking the sizeable bounty of the Premier League each season. I think if we can do it for a few more seasons, we may see that we've compounded enough of those gains to start making more of a dent.

Personally I think more people need to enjoy being where we are a little more and not constantly chasing the next thing, and the next thing, and the next thing.
 

Jay Jay de Wolf

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@Asthmatic Wolf welcome to MM an excellent OP and assessment of Fosun's stalling and status quo position with our great club the last 18 months or so.

Imho we need a new injection and impetus to go forward now if not with Fosun International I would like to see maybe American Owners to give us back that dream again of breaking into that top 6. Of which Newcastle Fans no doubt have got now for next season with their new owners.
 
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TheConcourse

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They’ve missed the boat.

As much as fans take the **** out of teams “doing bits”, we finished a couple of wins ahead of Villa who have strengthened significantly already. Newcastle will go big.

Any Wolves fan who doesn’t think there’s a very real chance of those clubs finishing up above next season are living in a deluded space.

IMO we’re entering a period of rebuilding the team, which is a really nice way of saying we’re signing players who are hit and miss, probably selling the good ones and floundering in the middle of the league. It feels very Southampton-y.

I can’t believe they’ve slept on the opportunity.
 
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cannockwolves

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I don't think it's that easy to break the top six, let alone the top four.

People keep saying it would have been just one or two players, but that's rubbish. If you get two or three big injuries like we have had with Jiminez, Neto, and Jonny you would have needed those additions just to stand still.

In reality you would have needed six players costing £150m to make a real sustained run at the top six - pretty much what I expect Newcastle to do now.

Even if you acquired those six players you would have to factor in two of them may not settle (or get injured).

Our problem is we don't have the extended commercial revenue of the top six, unless we get a upgraded ground and better business facilities we are always going to be reliant on TV money - more than enough for stability but not enough for pushing us to the next level.
 

John de Wolf's hairdryer

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but that is not what was said when we were promoted,we were aiming to win the premier league within 7 years,i now assume they meant dog years!!we were also touted to being one of the biggest teams in the world.i used to get told i was deluded when discussing this with other fans,but as i used to say to them,i am not saying this it is our owners
Whilst some of that may have simply been naivety on the part of Fosun, the fact is that the original intention was completely blown away by changes in strategic priorities by the Chinese Government. Once the Chinese Communist Party decided that it didn't want Chinese companies investing in assets in Britain anymore due to deteriorating relations between Beijing and London, Fosun's original plan was toast, and WWFC stuffed as a consequence.
 
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TheConcourse

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I don't think it's that easy to break the top six, let alone the top four.

People keep saying it would have been just one or two players, but that's rubbish. If you get two or three big injuries like we have had with Jiminez, Neto, and Jonny you would have needed those additions just to stand still.

In reality you would have needed six players costing £150m to make a real sustained run at the top six - pretty much what I expect Newcastle to do now.

Even if you acquired those six players you would have to factor in two of them may not settle (or get injured).

Our problem is we don't have the extended commercial revenue of the top six, unless we get a upgraded ground and better business facilities we are always going to be reliant on TV money - more than enough for stability but not enough for pushing us to the next level.
The biggest concern for me is recruitment strategy. Semedo, Silva, Hwang - I don’t see any consistency?

Semedo has been good this season. I rate him. But his career numbers never shouted prolific. I think he’d be capable in a four but we never made the transition - so why sign him?

Pointless even talking about Hwang.

Silva might/might not do something - who knows. It’s a hell of a punt for a club that’s so risk averse with new signings.
 

Mugwump

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If you want to be sustainable you basically have to do what the likes of Salzburg and Dortmund have done. They get quality young talent who can make an impact in the first team then sell them on with the next version of the player you have just sold. Easier said than done, but it can be done.
 
D

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Good recruitment is more important than the size of the cheque book.

true but Not easy and FFP limits the cheque book.

a lot of people seem to have different definitions of sustainability. The OP says

“Yet as I read that Ruben Neves, who could and should have been the centrepiece of our progression into the elite of the PL, is all but confirming that he is on his way, the fallacy of it all becomes impossible to ignore.”

The belief that somehow wolves can prevent Neves leaving is difficult to understand…how exactly? Refuse to sell? Triple his salary? The key point is that all ambitious players also use the project to get ahead themselves and get to a big six team, on big six salaries, with big six tournaments. This is what makes it so very difficult to “ get to the next level” ….once FFP was developed to limit expenditure based on revenue no team has been able to sustain competitiveness with the big six. The last to overspend their way to the top were city and Chelsea.

Sustainability to me is the ability to maintain a top ten position….last seasons form for the last 12 games was 17th….big six is a very long way away and wolves will not be there any time soon.
 

WolfLing

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If you want to be sustainable you basically have to do what the likes of Salzburg and Dortmund have done. They get quality young talent who can make an impact in the first team then sell them on with the next version of the player you have just sold. Easier said than done, but it can be done.

I think that's what we are trying to do, but not quite hitting the sweet spot with some deals and being unlucky with injuries on others too.

Selling Jota, replacing him with Neto. If Neto had stayed fit, this would have worked fine.

Silva - too expensive

Hwang - too old

And in a few years, we will look back having made the wrong calls on both Vitinha and Trincao.

Toti and Chiquinho type deals are more of what's needed, but making sure the first team is in tip top condition first and foremost!
 

Mugwump

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I think that's what we are trying to do, but not quite hitting the sweet spot with some deals and being unlucky with injuries on others too.

Selling Jota, replacing him with Neto. If Neto had stayed fit, this would have worked fine.

Silva - too expensive

Hwang - too old

And in a few years, we will look back having made the wrong calls on both Vitinha and Trincao.

Toti and Chiquinho type deals are more of what's needed, but making sure the first team is in tip top condition first and foremost!

Yep, you cant have a team of them but you can have a couple once you get a solid first 11.
 

AndyWolves

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true but Not easy and FFP limits the cheque book.

a lot of people seem to have different definitions of sustainability. The OP says

“Yet as I read that Ruben Neves, who could and should have been the centrepiece of our progression into the elite of the PL, is all but confirming that he is on his way, the fallacy of it all becomes impossible to ignore.”

The belief that somehow wolves can prevent Neves leaving is difficult to understand…how exactly? Refuse to sell? Triple his salary? The key point is that all ambitious players also use the project to get ahead themselves and get to a big six team, on big six salaries, with big six tournaments. This is what makes it so very difficult to “ get to the next level” ….once FFP was developed to limit expenditure based on revenue no team has been able to sustain competitiveness with the big six. The last to overspend their way to the top were city and Chelsea.

Sustainability to me is the ability to maintain a top ten position….last seasons form for the last 12 games was 17th….big six is a very long way away and wolves will not be there any time soon.

Couldn't agree more, I don't see how we keep Ruben when the big boys come knocking. Even if we were in Europe it would make no difference. It's part of our plan to buy these guys and then sell them for more. We will never be able to compete with the top six unless our owners change and the ffp rules change.

Man United have been ****ing up for years, but are still comfortably ahead of us.
 

goldfish

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The returns available at CL level from qualification alone, ignoring the commercial revenues, the player attraction, and the increased FFP ceiling would more than pay for the capital invested whilst enhancing Fosun’s brand further. Player asset values would increase too. However whenever we have been close, we have backed away, even weakening our squad rather than maintaining continuity or the status quo.
We would need to spend hundreds of millions of pounds to be fairly certain of even challenging for Champions League qualification. This would risk sanction under FFP and saddle the club with huge debts, threatening its medium term future and making it substantially harder for Fosun to sell should they so wish.

And while increased revenue from the CL is all well and good, it's only for one year. The cost of signing CL quality players isn't!

Of course I'd love us to push on, but realistically that needs to be with the Jota, Neves and Sa model: sign good, established young(ish) players for £8-20m; get a few years' out of them; sell for £30m+. This is risky, of course: we need to make sure we use the Neves money well this summer or we'll be in real trouble, and aside from Sa (and Chiquinho?) our recent recruitment has been poor. But that would apply if we were splashing out £100m+ every summer (look at Man Utd!).

The big question is then how you maintain supporter interest and 'grow the brand'. I think we need to target cup runs and qualification for either of the lesser European competitions.
 

Oliwolf44

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It feels very Southampton-y.

I can’t believe they’ve slept on the opportunity.
Southampton the perfect comparison in my eyes. Finishing midtable every year with little to no investment and sell best players and no high earners. We are a better team than Southampton and probably a level above but the model rings true.
I thought it was us and Leicester being similar at first but then Leicester owners put their hands in their pocket when it moves the team forwards. (Tielemans £40million, Brand new training facility which looks unbelievable).
Every decision Wolves have made in the last 3 yrs i would say is about maximising profit and not improving league position or cup run.
Small squad, smaller wage budget - Squad inevitably runs out of gas at the end of seasons
No stadium improvements as costly with little to no immediate benefit - rise in costs for supporters for the same seat in a dilapidated old stand
Sell best players and buy cheaper replacements
Same spine for 5yrs - costly to replace

This is all sounds very anti-fosun but if youre happy with midtable prem and possibly trying to get conference league then its fine and they have raised the bar clearly from where we were before Fosun (this is never in doubt). But dont tell me we are raising prices so that we can compete with the top 6. Football fans dont want to be made fools of and the original claims of glory seems a distant cry. Dont **** on me and tell me its raining.

When we sign Palhninha, Guedes, Ronaldo, Messi and Neymar in the summer i take it all back :tearsofjoy: :tearsofjoy:
 

hollo

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@Asthmatic Wolf welcome to MM an excellent OP and assessment of Fosun's stalling and status quo position with our great club the last 18 months or so.

Imho we need a new injection and impetus to go forward now if not with Fosun International I would like to see maybe American Owners to give us back that dream again of breaking into that top 6. Of which Newcastle Fans no doubt have got now for next season with their new owners.
American owners would conduct a leveraged buy out with nasty clauses if relegation happened.
 

KBWWFC

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Everton & villa have shown you can spend loads and not move anywhere.

With all due respect for those clubs, they have never had a solid core - they're always lurching from rebuild to rebuild which costs a lot of money, and they don't have the connections (Mendes) to tap into.

Fosuns initial investment ensured we had a solid Premier League team when we were in the championship.

We've moved from a position of strength, where we only required small upgrades, but had the money to spend, to a position where we need to replace a whole bunch of players without the funds.

We can't fix this squad without spending serious money on it.

A few years ago all we needed to do was sign a CB, a backup for Raul, and an additional squad midfielder with a different profile to provide rotation for Moutinho.

That's spiralled into replacing several first teamers AND signing squad depth options, without funding available.
 

WolfLing

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I thought it was us and Leicester being similar at first but then Leicester owners put their hands in their pocket when it moves the team forwards. (Tielemans £40million, Brand new training facility which looks unbelievable).

Leicester are ahead of us in that model though. Their net spend over 5 seasons is actually lower than ours (£25m per season average compared to our £38m).

The reason they have been able to spend £40m on Tielemans and develop their off-field facilities is because they sold Mahrez for £60m and Maguire for £80m!
 

Perton Wolf

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6pts away from European football which would've provided an extra revenue stream, as well as some more exposure for the club. That January transfer window was a disgrace and unfortunately shows what is in store for the rest of FOSUN's ownership. Feels like they're more than happy for us to sit around midtable, not spend much and take the TV money. Unambitious to say the least.
 

Contrarian

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If you want to be sustainable you basically have to do what the likes of Salzburg and Dortmund have done. They get quality young talent who can make an impact in the first team then sell them on with the next version of the player you have just sold. Easier said than done, but it can be done.

Yep, I think that's about the best we can do. Take into consideration, the Premier League is totally dominated by 6 clubs, so you have even less chance of breaking top 6 that in the Bundesliga, La Liga etc.

I guess many fans will hate the idea now, because Fosun launched with fighting talk of "Champions League and challenging for the title". But by now, Fosun must have realised, their knowledge of football was a bit lacking and the amount of money required to compete with our Big 6 (and Europes Big 14, whatever it is) is *way* more than they first thought. Expectation is a big part of how happy we are with a situation - in life, not just league table finishes! They raised expectation to fever pitch, so now we are disappointed with our 3rd highest finish in 40 years.

Also, being sustainable doesn't mean "keeping Neves for ever". Or any player. Ruben has been brilliant for us and the owners and managers deserve great credit for getting him and keeping a player of his quality for 5 years. Though we need to get the balance right and we've leaned too much towards young potential, since the first window on promotion. Not every transfer is going to work out - speculating, but seems to me that with forwards especially, desperation has crept in, leading to some unusual decisions. Possibly panicking at the lack of goal scorers for a couple of years now. They need to sort that out before anything. Get an actual goal scorer in on a loan to buy. Not keep phishing hoping the next one will work (eg Cutrone/Willian/Fabio/Hwang all failed at being the goal scorer we need) . And wait till the end of loan before deciding!!!!!

And a midfielder is needed desperately, too. Sometimes it does look like players are just being donated to us, and we have to fit them in. We have gluts in some areas and nothing in others. Lack of balance.
 
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oldgoldheart

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They’ve missed the boat.

As much as fans take the **** out of teams “doing bits”, we finished a couple of wins ahead of Villa who have strengthened significantly already. Newcastle will go big.

Any Wolves fan who doesn’t thing there’s a very real chance of those clubs finishing up above next season are living in a deluded space.

IMO we’re entering a period of rebuilding the team, which is a really nice way of saying we’re signing players who are hit and miss, probably selling the good ones and floundering in the middle of the league. It feels very Southampton-y.

I can’t believe they’ve slept on the opportunity.
I agree. Leicester newcastle villa and maybe everton will likely finish above us. We will do well to be best of the dross. We are likely to be scrapping with palace, southampton, etc but it could be even tougher
 

Thank you Sir Jack

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The issue with 'that final step' is it is so difficult to do and there are no guarantees. The club with the biggest net spent in the last 10 years (United) struggled to finished 6th.

It's not a 'givun' that keeping Traore, or spending in January would have made any difference to our season. Yes, it could have done, but like I say, there are no guarantees.

It's also worth noting that European qualification might have damaged our ability to rebuild this summer, given that it would limit our spending moreso than PL spending rules would. I'm not saying we deliberately failed to qualify for Europe, but the rebuild is more important, so I'm actually glad we've avoided it.

For us, it's probably about staying in touch. Maintaining our status as a club for whom relegation is probably not a concern, but will always compete in that pack between 7th and 12th. That's with clubs like West Ham, Leicester, probably now Newcastle too.

We will then have seasons where everything falls into place. New signings hit the ground running and we are lucky with injuries etc. Very similar to our first few seasons under Nuno, but not at all what's happened in the last 2. Those are the seasons where we finish above par and can potentially push on.
Good post WolfLing.
 

KBWWFC

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If you want to be sustainable you basically have to do what the likes of Salzburg and Dortmund have done. They get quality young talent who can make an impact in the first team then sell them on with the next version of the player you have just sold. Easier said than done, but it can be done.

The German league isn't competitive though, Leipzig and Dortmund can operate like this because (except Bayern) the rest of the teams don't have the resources to compete at the top end of the table, and are generally of a low standard.

Premier League is much more competitive - outside the top 6, the rest of the teams are on a more even playing field, resource wise.

I don't think it's possible to replicate the Dortmund/Leipzig model in the UK, Southampton are doing a good job of it, but are constantly in a relegation battle.
 

Chiswick_Wolf

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I agree. Leicester newcastle villa and maybe everton will likely finish above us. We will do well to be best of the dross. We are likely to be scrapping with palace, southampton, etc but it could be even tougher
For years fans have proclaimed that other teams will finish above us due to greater financial power (back in the championship it was always the relegated teams with parachute payments that would do it). It's not that simple. Those teams might finish above us. They might not. There's not much between teams in midtable so funnily enough in a good season you can be 6th or 7th and in a bad season 14th, yet still a mid-table team.
 

WolfLing

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I don't think it's possible to replicate the Dortmund/Leipzig model in the UK, Southampton are doing a good job of it, but are constantly in a relegation battle.

Leicester are doing it at the other end of the table and they've won a cup. That's who we should be looking at.

Their player trading is exceptional.
 

SteveBullsKnee

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I agree with lots that’s been said but I don’t get the bit where villa are somehow nailed on to finish above us. They’ve spent a vast amount the last 12 months to finish 4 places lower than they did under Smith. Gerrard is the emperor’s new clothes and my bet is he’s the first premier league manager to get the boot next season.
 

Oliwolf44

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Leicester are ahead of us in that model though. Their net spend over 5 seasons is actually lower than ours (£25m per season average compared to our £38m).

The reason they have been able to spend £40m on Tielemans and develop their off-field facilities is because they sold Mahrez for £60m and Maguire for £80m!
On a side note Man Utd are as desperate for a CDM as they were for a CB, would we get £80m for Neves despite him being twice the player of Maguire? Jota and Neves we get £80million and for Mahrez and Maguire, Leicester get £140m?!

Obviously im an idiot and its nonsensical to compare different situations, but does making everyone aware of a sell-to-buy policy drive the price down? Everyone knows you are looking to sell so can therefore push the price down. Leicester had already lined up Barnes and Soyuncu as replacements. I just hope we have Neves replacement lined up. Neto was already in line for Jota so can understand a bit more.
Intra-prem transfers is clearly a sellers market - Grealish £100mil, Maguire £80mil, Wood £25mil, Iwobi £35mil, White £50mil. Cant think of many recently where that was really great value from the buyers perspective. We should be asking for a kings ransom if we are selling to other prem teams.
 

WolfLing

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On a side note Man Utd are as desperate for a CDM as they were for a CB, would we get £80m for Neves despite him being twice the player of Maguire? Jota and Neves we get £80million and for Mahrez and Maguire, Leicester get £140m?!

Obviously im an idiot and its nonsensical to compare different situations, but does making everyone aware of a sell-to-buy policy drive the price down? Everyone knows you are looking to sell so can therefore push the price down. Leicester had already lined up Barnes and Soyuncu as replacements. I just hope we have Neves replacement lined up. Neto was already in line for Jota so can understand a bit more.
Intra-prem transfers is clearly a sellers market - Grealish £100mil, Maguire £80mil, Wood £25mil, Iwobi £35mil, White £50mil. Cant think of many recently where that was really great value from the buyers perspective. We should be asking for a kings ransom if we are selling to other prem teams.

I'd much rather sell to a foreign club than a domestic one.

But I'd also rather get £60m plus cash from United than a bag of scratchings and a couple of reject players from Barca!

Can't have it all I suppose.

And £80m for Maguire is as much about United's failings than it is about Leicester's negotiating. He's worth no more than £30m.

Realistically, £50m would be the most we will get for Neves.
 
T

TheConcourse

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On a side note Man Utd are as desperate for a CDM as they were for a CB, would we get £80m for Neves despite him being twice the player of Maguire? Jota and Neves we get £80million and for Mahrez and Maguire, Leicester get £140m?!

Obviously im an idiot and its nonsensical to compare different situations, but does making everyone aware of a sell-to-buy policy drive the price down? Everyone knows you are looking to sell so can therefore push the price down. Leicester had already lined up Barnes and Soyuncu as replacements. I just hope we have Neves replacement lined up. Neto was already in line for Jota so can understand a bit more.
Intra-prem transfers is clearly a sellers market - Grealish £100mil, Maguire £80mil, Wood £25mil, Iwobi £35mil, White £50mil. Cant think of many recently where that was really great value from the buyers perspective. We should be asking for a kings ransom if we are selling to other prem teams.
Yes, yes and yes

In a world where Pepe cost Arsenal £70m, regardless of him being an “attacking” player, we should be going all out to get a similar fee for an unbelievable talent who has delivered in this league consistently for a couple of years in a pretty pragmatic side.

This isn’t a gamble. It isn’t a “could he adapt to the PL”, this is an absolute cast-iron guarantee that some club is getting a CM capable of bringing their team together for the best part of half a decade. And then probably still get some form of sell-on value.

I watched him yesterday in one of the only games I can remember where he had forward runners, and he absolutely cut Liverpool to pieces on numerous occasions. Different class.
 
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