Stadium Plans

[WickedWolfie]

I've recently had the pleasure of both stands. As a 6ft 6' tall person with very long legs, the Steve Bull is a torture to endure. But I would rather suffer than not get a ticket at all and accept that I am the exception that cannot be the blueprint for stadium legroom. The view from the Steve Bull was superior as you are a bit far away towards the back of the Stan Cullis upper.

As l've said on here before my ST was in the SBU until this season when l moved to the NBU. The former, with a knackered ankle and awaiting an op, was torture indeed. I am just under 6ft.
Not to mention being in J1 and having to battle the length of a completely inadequate concourse before and after every game.

 

[GV Wolf]

The North Bank isn't the best albeit that it is far from as bad as you state. It's not the worst either, far from it, which is why your comment is so weird in my view. Have you ever been in the Steve Bull?

Yep had a season ticket in there for years in the 90’s. Yours and subsequent posts from others mixers seem to be concerned about seat depth and comfort/general facilities which is fair enough. I come from the point of view that now I am in the SBank I have had to stare at the monstrosity for the last 10 years . Perhaps if I was in the NB or Morgan/Moxley had finished it I wouldn’t have this view point.

 

[woop woop barmy army]

Is there a game on there tonight? All the floodlights are on.

 

[Pagey]

A new stadium built elsewhere.....

Can't see it tbh, if we owned the land then maybe, the fact we have a long lease on, i'd imagine reasonable terms, negates the chances of us upping sticks, buying land elsewhere and building a stadium.

I just think Fosun are trying to get the right support from the council to redevelop, maybe involving the university. Without Molineux the Centre of wolves would die.

 

[Jay Jay de Wolf]

Did anyone notice all of Fosun's stadium redevelopment plans and updates seem to go away when this guy left?

 

[moseleyite]

Is there a game on there tonight? All the floodlights are on.

They’re still looking for Coutinho apparently

 

[Sussex Wolf]

I think the North Bank would also feel better if it was linked to a (bigger and better quality) duplicate Steve Bull.

I'd want to see the two tiers half rounded into the South Bank too, with the lower tier fully rounded.

We probably won't see any movement on the ground while Fosun are in charge anyway but I do worry a bit that us in J9 and 10 will end up split up and the atmosphere there diluted, as happened with the North Bank rebuild.

I would not want to see the South Bank with 2 tiers. You can do the seamless rounding you describe and still blend a 2 tier Steve Bill into a single tier South Bank. The Spurs stadium provides a good example.

 

[lostwolf]

I would not want to see the South Bank with 2 tiers. You can do the seamless rounding you describe and still blend a 2 tier Steve Bill into a single tier South Bank. The Spurs stadium provides a good example.

I didn't explain that very well... I meant keep the South Bank as a single tier.

 

[JayStringer]

I didn't explain that very well... I meant keep the South Bank as a single tier.

Yep. Basically the lower tiers of the North Bank and Steve Bull seamlessly rounding into a single tier South Bank, but the upper tier of the North Bank and Steve Bull only carrying round into the south east corner.

All these many pages later, and it still seems to me the best way forward is to match the Steve Bull up with the North Bank, join them both up with a mega South Bank, and leave the Billy Wright as is for some character and as a way to expand further if ever needed.

My only caveat is that I think the design for the outside of the NorthBank is already looking dated. I think they should come up with something fresher for the new stands, and then give the North Bank a facelift to match.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

I would not want to see the South Bank with 2 tiers. You can do the seamless rounding you describe and still blend a 2 tier Steve Bill into a single tier South Bank. The Spurs stadium provides a good example.

But we could sing south bankers in the sky yippee yayyy lol

 

[yateleywolf]

Found this on You Tube of Molineux before re-development took place.

 

[Berlin Wolf]

Found this on You Tube of Molineux before re-development took place.

Brings back a lot of memories thanks, particularly the North Bank footage.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Found this on You Tube of Molineux before re-development took place.

As a companion video, this is perfect. The footage of both the original and restaged Honved games lovely. Brings back bitter sweet memories of the hope we had when Sir Jack finished his redevelopment.

 

[TFWanderers]

I would not want to see the South Bank with 2 tiers. You can do the seamless rounding you describe and still blend a 2 tier Steve Bill into a single tier South Bank. The Spurs stadium provides a good example.

It doesn't matter if it's single tiered, a double or triple decker. If the prices of the new seats only entice the rich upper classes the atmosphere will be poor.

The South Bank consists of a strong working class core but should season tickets rise up to £650, we'll start to lose this.

Spurs have got that massive 18,000 seater stand yet they're like field mice the majority of the time. Grand a season ticket.

 

[Mardenboroughs Shoulder]

I know it's not something anyone has considered yet, but what if we acquire the Asda site and build a new single tier, 40,000 seat Steve Bull Stand? No problem getting tickets for the foreseeable future. We could move the pitch 90 degrees and call the new monster stand The South Bank, even though technically it would be the East Bank!

 

[TFWanderers]

I know it's not something anyone has considered yet, but what if we acquire the Asda site and build a new single tier, 40,000 seat Steve Bull Stand? No problem getting tickets for the foreseeable future. We could move the pitch 90 degrees and call the new monster stand The South Bank, even though technically it would be the East Bank!

We'd have to find Asda a suitable replacement site. It's a profitable, prime location store for them.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

It doesn't matter if it's single tiered, a double or triple decker. If the prices of the new seats only entice the rich upper classes the atmosphere will be poor.

The South Bank consists of a strong working class core but should season tickets rise up to £650, we'll start to lose this.

Spurs have got that massive 18,000 seater stand yet they're like field mice the majority of the time. Grand a season ticket.

That’s a decision for the club. Leave the ground small as it is, and with limited capacity and limited hospitality, the prices will continue to rise to compensate. Make the ground big and build it expensively, and prices will need to be high, or a large portion of the new stands will need to be for hospitality to pay for the construction. There are plenty of ways the club could keep the prices relatively low for those on lower incomes, but I guarantee that for every such idea, there will be vocal losers.

As for Spurs, their season tickets run from £400 to over £2000, depending on whether you’re a concession or not, and which area you are in.

https://www.tottenhamhotspur.com/media/37678/2021-22-season-ticket-price-changes.pdf

Spurs are in London, where average wages are a third higher than the West Midlands. It doesn’t make up for the difference in prices between Spurs and Wolves, but does explain some of it. Having to pay back almost a billion pound loan certainly makes a difference!

UK full-time annual salary by region 2023 | Statista

Average earnings in London were higher than the rest of the UK in 2023, with earnings varying significantly across UK regions.

www.statista.com

What is more interesting is to look at a comparison of the least expensive season tickets…

Cheapest Premier League season tickets 2023 | Statista

Premier League clubs offer season tickets at a range of prices, usually depending on what part of the stadium the seat is in.

www.statista.com

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

What doesn't help us is capacity. 5th in the table for cheapest ticket but low in the list of capacity. West Ham have double the capacity of us, so their cheap ticket reflects how many more they can sell.
The answer is of course raise our capacity, then reduce ticket prices accordingly. Easy to say i guess...

 

[Nige]

Fosun aren't Interested in Stadium redevelopment Or would of done something by now after all we are 6 years into a 10 year plan ..... YAWN..

 

[beppe7619]

Anyone know what makes Newcastles ground echo is it the roof and the sides that holds the atmosphere in I felt it made a big difference in wood getting his pen. It reminded me of the old south bank

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

I would put my money on the club maximising the current 32k Molineux.
Perhaps, a future 500 seat SE Corner temp stand, and renovation work on the Steve Bull stand improving facilities there.
A new 40 to 45k stadium built elsewhere would cost several hundred million minimum, most fans don't want to move elsewhere anyway.
You can never say never. But the sheer cost of Fosun financing a new stadium elsewhere, or building new stands at Molineux, seem dead and buried.

Fosun would never finance anything to do with the stadium the club would take on debt to do it.

 

[Berlin Wolf]

Fosun would never finance anything to do with the stadium the club would take on debt to do it.

In that case, even more impossible it would seem.
In other words, Fosun own the club but would take on debt to redevelop Molineux, rather than use a slice of their company profits to do it?

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

In that case, even more impossible it would seem.
In other words, Fosun own the club but would take on debt to redevelop Molineux, rather than use a slice of their company profits to do it?

Yeah, why would they want to use their profits when they can just finance stadium redevelopment like every other club does? They loan money themselves to finance their deals so the club would as well. They have £1.67BN in debt,£531M in net debt.

 

[Stourport wolf]

There is one thing Fosun have done brilliantly and that is the brand name. I live in what you would call a cultural tourist location, in Spain, so I see tourists from all over the world. If I wear a Wolves baseball cap, with just the Wolf head logo, people not from England will point and say Wolves.
Yesterday an Italian who supports Roma, a German who supports Dortmund and someone from Holland, all said Wolves when they saw the Wolves logo.
It got me thinking, that there aren't many clubs in the Premier League, who you could identify a team by, just by their logo, if nothing is written next to it. I know we have had the Wolf's head for many years, but Fosun have truly put us on another level as a brand name.

 

[beppe7619]

There is one thing Fosun have done brilliantly and that is the brand name. I live in what you would call a cultural tourist location, in Spain, so I see tourists from all over the world. If I wear a Wolves baseball cap, with just the Wolf head logo, people not from England will point and say Wolves.
Yesterday an Italian who supports Roma, a German who supports Dortmund and someone from Holland, all said Wolves when they saw the Wolves logo.
It got me thinking, that there aren't many clubs in the Premier League, who you could identify a team by, just by their logo, if nothing is written next to it. I know we have had the Wolf's head for many years, but Fosun have truly put us on another level as a brand name.

That is great to hear.

 

[beppe7619]

say if Fosun sold the club for 350 Million tomorrow what would happen to the redevelopment or the rebuild of the Steve Bull Stand as the new owner would of already of spent 350m on buying the club

 

[Abbobrom]

Stourport, good to hear. How many clubs are referred to more by their nickname, Wolves, rather than by their full name?

 

[topcat99]

Stourport, good to hear. How many clubs are referred to more by their nickname, Wolves, rather than by their full name?

The ****

 

[Hsvwolf]

There is one thing Fosun have done brilliantly and that is the brand name. I live in what you would call a cultural tourist location, in Spain, so I see tourists from all over the world. If I wear a Wolves baseball cap, with just the Wolf head logo, people not from England will point and say Wolves.
Yesterday an Italian who supports Roma, a German who supports Dortmund and someone from Holland, all said Wolves when they saw the Wolves logo.
It got me thinking, that there aren't many clubs in the Premier League, who you could identify a team by, just by their logo, if nothing is written next to it. I know we have had the Wolf's head for many years, but Fosun have truly put us on another level as a brand name.

Agree......the next level is to see your shirt hanging on the rails of rip off replica shirts in Spanish & Greek tat shops.....thats when you've made it as a brand .......

 

[topcat99]

Agree......the next level is to see your shirt hanging on the rails of rip off replica shirts in Spanish & Greek tat shops.....thats when you've made it as a brand .......

I got chased away from a dodgy replica shirt shop in Spain. The England one had a Lion missing.

The Spanish proprietor didn’t appreciate our rendition of “Two Lions on a shirt “ outside his shop.

 

[YouGottaRaulWithIt]

I got similar treatment in a sports shop in Porto. I asked where all the Wolves shirts were. He said we don't stock Wolves shirts. I said why not (points at Porto shirt) You have got plenty of our feeder team.

 

[SanFranWolf]

Fosun would never finance anything to do with the stadium the club would take on debt to do it.

What's wrong with taking on some debt to do the stadium, dont interest rates mean that the cost of capital is cheap as chips at the minute?

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

I got similar treatment in a sports shop in Porto. I asked where all the Wolves shirts were. He said we don't stock Wolves shirts. I said why not (points at Porto shirt) You have got plenty of our feeder team.

As you got chased out with a baseball bat...

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

There is one thing Fosun have done brilliantly and that is the brand name. I live in what you would call a cultural tourist location, in Spain, so I see tourists from all over the world. If I wear a Wolves baseball cap, with just the Wolf head logo, people not from England will point and say Wolves.
Yesterday an Italian who supports Roma, a German who supports Dortmund and someone from Holland, all said Wolves when they saw the Wolves logo.
It got me thinking, that there aren't many clubs in the Premier League, who you could identify a team by, just by their logo, if nothing is written next to it. I know we have had the Wolf's head for many years, but Fosun have truly put us on another level as a brand name.

It's good to hear. One of the reasons Fosun bought us was for that logo, so nice for them to hear too.

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

There is one thing Fosun have done brilliantly and that is the brand name. I live in what you would call a cultural tourist location, in Spain, so I see tourists from all over the world. If I wear a Wolves baseball cap, with just the Wolf head logo, people not from England will point and say Wolves.
Yesterday an Italian who supports Roma, a German who supports Dortmund and someone from Holland, all said Wolves when they saw the Wolves logo.
It got me thinking, that there aren't many clubs in the Premier League, who you could identify a team by, just by their logo, if nothing is written next to it. I know we have had the Wolf's head for many years, but Fosun have truly put us on another level as a brand name.

I live very close to the city of Kingston upon Hull. The previous owners of their football club fell out big time with supporters by trying to change the name of the club to "Hull Tigers" , on the very basis that this would be an internationally recognised brand, particularly in Asia. He was, of course, being wildly optimistic in thinking that Hull could have international appeal in any guise, but had a slight point in his favour around the recognition of the tiger symbol. We of course have the advantage, in that our club has always been better known by its nickname than its full name - so no need for any change. I remember we used to be the dual pub quiz answer to "Which team has the longest name in the Football League?" And "Which team appears on the pools coupon with its nickname rather than real name?" The Wolf's head motif, despite its rather dated appearance has similarly become synonymous with the club and internationally recognised. Good job no one thought to update it and it has now become "retro" rather than simply old fashioned.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Stourport, good to hear. How many clubs are referred to more by their nickname, Wolves, rather than by their full name?

Spuds...

 

[Sussex Wolf]

What's wrong with taking on some debt to do the stadium, dont interest rates mean that the cost of capital is cheap as chips at the minute?

They could, but the repayments and interest burden would be on Wolves accounts. For example, assume Fosun use their financial muscle to ensure Wolves can borrow at their borrowing rate, which was 4.4% in Fosun’s last published accounts. For every £100m of stadium development costs, Wolves would then pay £4.4m of interest and about the same on capital repayment, so let’s just say £10m per annum in total. If we assume a budget of say £200m to redevelop 3 stands, that’s around £20m per annum, which is roughly the profit we make in a typical year (ignoring covid effects).

That looks feasible, especially when you consider that the enhanced facilities should increase revenue. However the issue is that gate receipts and matchday income is such a small part of PL finances, that it’s challenging to make an economic case for expansion on that alone.

Villa Park today is about the size we’d likely target for expanding Molineux. Villa are a similar club in a similar area, so a reasonable proxy for what our matchday income might be with a 45k Molineux. If you look at Villa gate receipts adjusted for covid impacts, it’s about twice ours of £11m, meaning that expanding Molineux would directly increase gate receipts by perhaps £10-15m.

If the finance and repayments amount to £20m, then there would be no business case based on matchday income alone. It would need to be bolstered by a significant increase in hospitality (remembering that Villa already have more of this than us), increased ticket prices, and other commercial income such as perhaps naming rights. I could imagine it would be possible to make a financial case for this, and that must be true as Villa are planning a 7k expansion, and many PL clubs have or plan to expand their stadiums too.

But it doesn’t come risk free. Inflation is rising and interest rates too. It was inflation and interest rates which bankrupted Wolves 40 years ago remember. Also consider new risks like covid, the war in Ukraine, and China U.K. relations. Spurs have suffered badly in the short term from having a massive loan and a year when income from their new stadium was badly affected. Put the thin financial case together with the sizeable risks, and much as it saddens me, I can see why Jeff is downplaying significant investment in Molineux.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

What's wrong with taking on some debt to do the stadium, dont interest rates mean that the cost of capital is cheap as chips at the minute?

We are paying 7% on the interest from Macquarie, football clubs get really bad rates because of relegation threat.

 

[SanFranWolf]

Very good post @SussexWolf, thanks for that.

I guess it would look less risky if it was done stand by stand?

What do you think the financial case for doing the Steve Bull by itself and then the Jack Hayward 'later' might be?

At this point I'd happily take anything!

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Very good post @SussexWolf, thanks for that.

I guess it would look less risky if it was done stand by stand?

What do you think the financial case for doing the Steve Bull by itself and then the Jack Hayward 'later' might be?

At this point I'd happily take anything!

The post got me thinking too, and I suspect the club reached a similar conclusion about not doing a big expensive rebuild.

If £200m makes for a thin business case that doesn’t cover the risks taken on, then a more modest investment to achieve as much of the same benefits as possible, makes more sense. Suppose the club still targets 45k and much enhanced hospitality facilities, but reduces the total budget to £100m. Fosun still use their muscle to secure better finance rates than the short term Macquarie loans. So what could we do for £100m?

We could redevelop the Steve Bull, and associated corners. All the state of the art hospitality we need, plus maybe taking the capacity up to 40k (ie a bit bigger than Morgan planned). Maybe we fix the North Bank roof at the same time! Let’s assume 70m for that.

We could then cheaply expand the South Bank, extending a single tier backwards as far as the site allows, and to the height of the North Bank. Let’s assume that takes capacity up to 45k and costs another 20m.

We could then reconfigure the BW internally, moving some facilities out (to the new Steve Bull or a separate office on Waterloo Rd) and creating a larger concourse in the upper stand, enhancing the corporate facilities further, and some cosmetic enhancements to match the rest of the stadium and extend the life of the stand. Let’s assume no capacity increase and costs another 10m.

Around 100m all in, 45k capacity, top quality hospitality and decent size seats and concourses for all our fans. Phased projects in the order above completed over 5 years and combined with the start of a broader redevelopment of the land around Molineux.

PS.
If 100m is still too much, then half it again to a total of 50m. Keep phases 2 & 3 above, but instead of replacing the Steve Bull, refurbish and remodel it extensively for 20m. Probably takes the total capacity down to 40k on completion and while the facilities would be much improved, they wouldn’t be at the level achievable through a total rebuilding of it. Wouldn’t be my choice since it would require lots of compromises and may be false economy.