Southgate - In or Out?

[WolfLing]

You know when players sing our national anthem and they sing, "God save OUR Queen" instead of, "God save THE Queen"?

I don't really mind, because it doesn't really matter and it's not really part of their job to know the difference.

But it really bugged me when Southgate did the same!! Call me petty, but surely a man in his position should know the lyrics to our national anthem?

I know it's completely irrational, how ridiculous it sounds and how it makes no difference at all and I know , but he really went down in my estimations because of it!

 

[JonahWolf]

Of all the previous high-profile managers, golden generations etc, we never got it right with structure when it comes to England.

The Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) was introduced in 2012 to help with that. This bore fruit in 2017, with the U17s and U20s both winning their respective World Cups.

3 of the U17 squad started last night. 3 more have played for the senior side. A couple of the U20 squad are in the current squad too.

2016 would have been too soon for any impact of the EPPP on the senior team. So I think to look at what happened prior to 2016 and compare it directly with post 2016 is like comparing apples and pears. Years of mistakes, vs something that has been proven to improve performance across the board at every level of competition.

So all the underlying metrics support Southgate's job. The pool of talent is probably wider than it's ever been.

For those wanting Southgate out, I don't think it's because up until now he hasn't done a good job, it's because they think that with all the support and tools available to him, a better manager could maybe get more of a song out of this group of players. Southgate had done the job of changing the culture and reconnecting the team with the public. So once that's done, bring in a manager with a better CV to move that forward again, as all the hard work Southgate did is in danger of being undone.

I also think the draws we had in both of those Southgate tournaments, and home advantage in the Euros helped us massively. Would a better manager have got at least the same results he did at those tournaments? Probably. Could they have beaten Croatia and Italy? Maybe?!

That. He’s done alright, but considering what he has to work with, and the favourable draws, then no he hasn’t particularly ‘achieved’ anything or exceeded any real expectations.
He kind of has, but that’s only because expectations for England have been so low for so long.

Just because myriad other managers massively underachieved with talented England squads, doesn’t mean that Southgate hasn’t also underachieved despite better results.
We beat the Germany of last year, which was nice, but they were on a downward curve since their World Cup win. They’re now re-invigorated by Flick, worh a large Bayern contingent benefitting from club and coach familiarity…and we rather struggled with them last week.

The only thing Southgate had avoided that most other England managers suffered from at some point, was an embarrassing defeat to a ‘lesser’ nation. Hungary are a better side than Iceland were, but the capitulation, lack of ideas and obvious fear were very similar.
It just won’t be as big a deal, because it didn’t ‘matter’ like a major tournament.

 

[Sedgley Gold N Black]

Keeping Phillips on for 90 minutes is a sackable offence to me, plus to bring on Maguire in that situation over Coady was pretty poor.

He'll be in charge for the World Cup, it'll be interesting to see if he reverts to what's served him quite well or keep tinkering.

 

[Rufio]

The bloke wouldn’t be on the list of any decent football team looking for a manager. He’s crap, that’s it.

To anyone saying Southgate in: If Bruno was sacked tomorrow would you want him as Wolves manager?

I’d bet 99% say no

 

[Flump]

To anyone saying Southgate in: If Bruno was sacked tomorrow would you want him as Wolves manager?

To anyone saying Southgate out: if Southgate was sacked tomorrow, who would we realistically get who is better?

 

[Bryce]

To anyone saying Southgate out: if Southgate was sacked tomorrow, who would we realistically get who is better?

I always wanted to see Wenger as England manager. That ship may have sailed but he always got a tune out of players regardless of their position or their club. Great tactician too. Only Fergie at his best got one over him. There is not realistic option to Southgate this close to the world cup.

 

[Flump]

I always wanted to see Wenger as England manager. That ship may have sailed but he always got a tune out of players regardless of their position or their club. Great tactician too. Only Fergie at his best got one over him. There is not realistic option to Southgate this close to the world cup.

Think he was well past his best by the time he finished - but if he'd stopped at Arsenal when he should have, he would have been a great choice.

 

[WolfLing]

Some interesting parallels yesterday with the England cricket team.

More or less the same group of players, yet a change of leadership and a change of attitude led to spectacularly different results.

There's a balance. This group of players is probably not as good as some make out. But it's also better than Southgate has them playing.

 

[Rufio]

To anyone saying Southgate out: if Southgate was sacked tomorrow, who would we realistically get who is better?

That’s not what I said. Would you take him as Wolves manager?

 

[top fox wolf]

That’s not what I said. Would you take him as Wolves manager?

Floodgate OUT NOW . he's a diplomat not a football manager he trys to be everything to everyone he has his favourites maguire mount Philips do me a favour. What was that all about taking a forward off at 0 3 down and you bring fat maguire on for .........sack .he's the F A love child Mr P C .let's get a manager in with some fire in there belly. Bet Wales and the good old U S OF A are rubbing there hands .and what disrespect to our conny not giving him at least a half on his home ground what a lift that would have given the fans especially the wolves fans in the ground. And greasy Jack the lad should have started at least he takes players on .so 2 Midlands players which would have given the crowd a lift many villa fans there last night as well hopeing to see greasy Jack. OPENGATE FOR ME IS A FAILURE as a manager get rid now cus we ain't winning sod all with him .WOLVES AY WE.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Whilst you can’t take away a World Cup semi and a euros final off him there needs to be some context in so far as in both tournaments he’s had exceptionally easy routes (yes you can only beat what is in front of you). Tactically he’s out of his depth, that’s as plain as day.

Trouble is international football now is dead, far too easy to qualify, far too many lower tier teams in tournaments so it’s hard to judge a coaches abilities.

He’ll keep his job as there’s no obvious English replacement and the foreign manager experiment has failed in the past.

Must be honest I think most people including fans, players and managers aren’t interested in international football. None of the really top managers want to touch it with a barge pole and the majority of players both English and others see it as an inconvenience on top of a ridiculous fixture schedule.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Floodgate OUT NOW . he's a diplomat not a football manager he trys to be everything to everyone he has his favourites maguire mount Philips do me a favour. What was that all about taking a forward off at 0 3 down and you bring fat maguire on for .........sack .he's the F A love child Mr P C .let's get a manager in with some fire in there belly. Bet Wales and the good old U S OF A are rubbing there hands .and what disrespect to our conny not giving him at least a half on his home ground what a lift that would have given the fans especially the wolves fans in the ground. And greasy Jack the lad should have started at least he takes players on .so 2 Midlands players which would have given the crowd a lift many villa fans there last night as well hopeing to see greasy Jack. OPENGATE FOR ME IS A FAILURE as a manager get rid now cus we ain't winning sod all with him .WOLVES AY WE.

We’re winning sod all regardless. For all the talk of this fantastic squad we have, it really isn’t

 

[Flump]

That’s not what I said. Would you take him as Wolves manager?

I know, but it's clearly a valid question when judging his effectiveness.

Probably not, but I don't think he'd be terrible for us. But you're kidding yourself if you think a manager from a club higher up in the table would move to England. It used to be the top job, now it's wayyyy down the list.

 

[SuperGran]

 

[Bill McCai]

Floodgate OUT NOW . he's a diplomat not a football manager he trys to be everything to everyone he has his favourites maguire mount Philips do me a favour. What was that all about taking a forward off at 0 3 down and you bring fat maguire on for .........sack .he's the F A love child Mr P C .let's get a manager in with some fire in there belly. Bet Wales and the good old U S OF A are rubbing there hands .and what disrespect to our conny not giving him at least a half on his home ground what a lift that would have given the fans especially the wolves fans in the ground. And greasy Jack the lad should have started at least he takes players on .so 2 Midlands players which would have given the crowd a lift many villa fans there last night as well hopeing to see greasy Jack. OPENGATE FOR ME IS A FAILURE as a manager get rid now cus we ain't winning sod all with him .WOLVES AY WE.

LOL

 

[Hot Fuss]

Whilst you can’t take away a World Cup semi and a euros final off him there needs to be some context in so far as in both tournaments he’s had exceptionally easy routes (yes you can only beat what is in front of you). Tactically he’s out of his depth, that’s as plain as day.

Trouble is international football now is dead, far too easy to qualify, far too many lower tier teams in tournaments so it’s hard to judge a coaches abilities.

He’ll keep his job as there’s no obvious English replacement and the foreign manager experiment has failed in the past.

Must be honest I think most people including fans, players and managers aren’t interested in international football. None of the really top managers want to touch it with a barge pole and the majority of players both English and others see it as an inconvenience on top of a ridiculous fixture schedule.

While I get that friendlies/nations league games in June aren’t ideal for a number of reasons I cant agree that most people aren’t interested in international football. Viewing figures for the euro final was 30 million in this country. Molineux sold out for what was basically a friendly yesterday.

The country goes ****ing mental when a World Cup or Euros is on, and the players seemed to love being involved last summer, you saw the footage of Coady and the rest of the players, hardly looked inconvenienced.

Thought the last Euros was a great tournament entertainment wise, personally enjoyed it far more than domestic football. Looking forward to the World Cup more than I am a premier league season of Man City winning the league again, wondering what order the rest of the big 6 will finish in and us trying to regain the 7th placed trophy.

 

[Timberwolf]

This seals it for me. We apparently lost last night by 4 goals to nil because…….wait for it…………..we were too attacking!

England’s drubbing by Hungary shows risk of over-attacking, warns Southgate

‘You’ve got to have the balance of a team right,’ the manager said as he reflected on England’s 4-0 Nations League defeat by Hungary at Molineux

www.theguardian.com

 

[GY Wolf]

In

 

[Sussex Wolf]

This seals it for me. We apparently lost last night by 4 goals to nil because…….wait for it…………..we were too attacking!

England’s drubbing by Hungary shows risk of over-attacking, warns Southgate

‘You’ve got to have the balance of a team right,’ the manager said as he reflected on England’s 4-0 Nations League defeat by Hungary at Molineux

www.theguardian.com

I know. I actually heard him make the point in his post match interview and wondered where people could buy the drugs he’s on.

Nice guy but an idiot. To quote a phrase “in the name of god, go”.

 

[Stoichkov]

I DON'T CARE

 

[Adrian_Monk]

Couldn't care less

 

[Hot Fuss]

I DON'T CARE

WHY OPEN THE THREAD THEN?

 

[Rufio]

I know, but it's clearly a valid question when judging his effectiveness.

Probably not, but I don't think he'd be terrible for us. But you're kidding yourself if you think a manager from a club higher up in the table would move to England. It used to be the top job, now it's wayyyy down the list.

I understand that, but keeping a crap manager for fear of hiring another crap manager is silly imo.

Personally I don’t care who they get in, as long as it’s someone that wants to play progressive football. Imagine playing for Klopp or Guardiola every week then pitching up to play for England with captain charisma in charge.

I’m 40, I’ve never seen England win anything apart from Le Tournoi. I don’t mind losing matches, I don’t have a sense of entitlement. I just think this bloke is crap. He’s a cardboard cutout yes man that would struggle getting a job in the championship.

 

[Flump]

I understand that, but keeping a crap manager for fear of hiring another crap manager is silly imo.

Personally I don’t care who they get in, as long as it’s someone that wants to play progressive football. Imagine playing for Klopp or Guardiola every week then pitching up to play for England with captain charisma in charge.

I’m 40, I’ve never seen England win anything apart from Le Tournoi. I don’t mind losing matches, I don’t have a sense of entitlement. I just think this bloke is crap. He’s a cardboard cutout yes man that would struggle getting a job in the championship.

He's not crap though is he - he's got us our two best finishes since 1990! You could argue he's missing that final piece to get over the line, but "crap" is just not true.

Whoever we appoint is not going to be as good as Klopp or Guardiola - and even if we did get someone like that (pipedreaming) - would they even be able to work their usual magic in the time they have available? IMO you don't want or need a master tactician in international football, you don't have time - you just need someone who will keep the players happy, and get them to play somewhere near the sum of their parts - and Southgate has shown he can do that, twice, better than anyone else in the last 30 years.

It's very, very easy to say you just want to see progressive football (we've had half a season of hearing that here) - perhaps England should bring back Keegan or Hoddle, see if that works out better this time? Who would the modern equivalents of them even be, that England could hire? Lampard/Potter/Howe (pre Newcastle)?

The games might not have been thrilling a lot of the time, but Southgate has kept us in both tournaments long enough for me to actually enjoy the feeling of the World Cup/Euros, and that's what I really want - before GS it'd been a long long time since we were in a tournament for long enough to even bother inviting friends round to watch an England match, or see flags go up everywhere... which reminds me, I'll need to get some little England flags for the Christmas tree this year!

 

[Woburn Wolf]

Keeping Phillips on for 90 minutes is a sackable offence to me, plus to bring on Maguire in that situation over Coady was pretty poor.

He'll be in charge for the World Cup, it'll be interesting to see if he reverts to what's served him quite well or keep tinkering.

You mean he will keep two donkeys in the middle of defence protected by two deep sitting defensive midfielders who create little and hope we can scrape a goal or two from the prolific Harry Kane. Deffo out for me. I said the same after the Euros.

 

[WolfLing]

... which reminds me, I'll need to get some little England flags for the Christmas tree this year!

If you go bin-dipping around Molineux I'm sure you'll find hundreds.

 

[Rufio]

He's not crap though is he - he's got us our two best finishes since 1990! You could argue he's missing that final piece to get over the line, but "crap" is just not true.

Whoever we appoint is not going to be as good as Klopp or Guardiola - and even if we did get someone like that (pipedreaming) - would they even be able to work their usual magic in the time they have available? IMO you don't want or need a master tactician in international football, you don't have time - you just need someone who will keep the players happy, and get them to play somewhere near the sum of their parts - and Southgate has shown he can do that, twice, better than anyone else in the last 30 years.

It's very, very easy to say you just want to see progressive football (we've had half a season of hearing that here) - perhaps England should bring back Keegan or Hoddle, see if that works out better this time? Who would the modern equivalents of them even be, that England could hire? Lampard/Potter/Howe (pre Newcastle)?

The games might not have been thrilling a lot of the time, but Southgate has kept us in both tournaments long enough for me to actually enjoy the feeling of the World Cup/Euros, and that's what I really want - before GS it'd been a long long time since we were in a tournament for long enough to even bother inviting friends round to watch an England match, or see flags go up everywhere... which reminds me, I'll need to get some little England flags for the Christmas tree this year!

If he’s not crap then I’ll reiterate my original point.

No decent club would want him as their manager. You wouldn’t want him as Wolves manager.

If that doesn’t tell you he’s crap then idk what else would. As for his England record, he has been extremely lucky with favourable draws and bumbled his way through tournaments. Surely everyone can see that

 

[Flump]

If he’s not crap then I’ll reiterate my original point.

No decent club would want him as their manager. You wouldn’t want him as Wolves manager.

If that doesn’t tell you he’s crap then idk what else would. As for his England record, he has been extremely lucky with favourable draws and bumbled his way through tournaments. Surely everyone can see that

There's a different skill set for being a club v country manager. And as a top 10 club in the PL, we're a far more attractive option for most managers, apart from those winding down before retirement.

We might have had lucky draws in Euro 200, Euro 2008, Brazil 2014, or Euro 2016, but we either didn't qualify, or didn't get out of the group! And the "lucky" draw in Russia was because we'd qualified after 2 group games, so could afford to coast the 3rd.

 

[WickedWolfie]

If he’s not crap then I’ll reiterate my original point.

No decent club would want him as their manager. You wouldn’t want him as Wolves manager.

If that doesn’t tell you he’s crap then idk what else would. As for his England record, he has been extremely lucky with favourable draws and bumbled his way through tournaments. Surely everyone can see that

The waistcoat would struggle to get a job in the Chump.

 

[Jefe]

This seals it for me. We apparently lost last night by 4 goals to nil because…….wait for it…………..we were too attacking!

That's Dean Saunders levels of delusion. Anyone who watched the goals knows it was simply down to crap defending and individual errors, not an imbalance between defence and attack. If we were so attacking, why did we create so few chances?

 

[Direwolf]

This seals it for me. We apparently lost last night by 4 goals to nil because…….wait for it…………..we were too attacking!

England’s drubbing by Hungary shows risk of over-attacking, warns Southgate

‘You’ve got to have the balance of a team right,’ the manager said as he reflected on England’s 4-0 Nations League defeat by Hungary at Molineux

www.theguardian.com

Yup this absolutely takes the biscuit. Southgate taking the blame because he set up the team to be too attacking - Yet the only team to score less goals than us in this round of fixtures was San Marino. His analysis is based on saying what may appear to sound good to the press. Mouth and trousers personified without any realistic perspective.

 

[OLDGOLD]

This seals it for me. We apparently lost last night by 4 goals to nil because…….wait for it…………..we were too attacking!

England’s drubbing by Hungary shows risk of over-attacking, warns Southgate

‘You’ve got to have the balance of a team right,’ the manager said as he reflected on England’s 4-0 Nations League defeat by Hungary at Molineux

www.theguardian.com

He couldn't attack the skin on a rice pudding.

 

[waveney wolf]

Nuno?

Sadly Nuno only had a plan A , you need more at the top

 

[Axle]

You mean he will keep two donkeys in the middle of defence protected by two deep sitting defensive midfielders who create little and hope we can scrape a goal or two from the prolific Harry Kane. Deffo out for me. I said the same after the Euros.

Two defensive midfielders is quite widely used in football though (admittedly often with a back four, not five). France had Viera and Petit and I think Brazil currently line up like this.

I suppose balance is the key thing. If you have six (not including GK) defensive players when you have players like England have, then that would be a good balance between defence and attack. Seven is probably too many, unless you have attacking wing backs (Alexander-Arnold and Shaw would probably be able to do some attacking work too).

We do have a wealth of good attacking talent. I think Southgate is a bit safety first. However, he does seem to get them to play together, which is not something that I have really seen since Robson in '86 and '90.

We need to show that we can do against the big nations at the big events. Germany last year was a good start. I hope that we can kick on from there, although there always seems to be that mental block around meeting big teams at big tournaments (France in 2004 was the prime example, but not the only one).

 

[Golden Oldie]

Imo he's got bitten by the 'virtue signalling' bug, the dated, goody goody grovelling before games, is a symptom.
The team that took the field against Hungary was almost a second eleven - why? Does he have so little
respect for Hungary?
Anyway, I'm now well beyond waiting for England to win anything, and if that is to change it won't be under this fellow.

 

[IANWILSON]

Yes man so will keep his job. When we flop at the WC, will realise its too late. The blokes lost the plot and plays his favourites who imo aren't international class.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Mr Woke Southgate needs to concentrate on Football instead of Politics ..
Been lucky in 2 tournaments now being found out.

Agenda merchants will use anything to cling to.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Mr Woke Southgate needs to concentrate on Football instead of Politics ..
Been lucky in 2 tournaments now being found out.

Do l rate the waistcoat? No. Do l buy the culture war political crap? Hell no. Given a choice between the Muppets who l cordially dispise having their way or Southgate staying then he stays every time for me.

 

[Nige]

Agenda merchants will use anything to cling to.

Exactly what Southgate does...