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Southgate - In or Out?

Dr Wolfenstein

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Pointless changing managers now, there isn't enough games left. Just stick with him but honestly maybe it'll be time for a change post World Cup.
I think I'd rather go for ''managerless England'' or ''new manager bounce'' as better options.
 

Rednal Wolf

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It was a friendly. 4 games in a week. At the end of a premier league season.
Maguire has got into team of the tournament in every International tournament he has played.
Yes a friendly so maybe try one of the lads with little or no experience.
In my view Maguire is a slow ponderous, poor decision making donkey that brings little to the international stage.
 

ombyman

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Last nights result was a bigger disaster than I first realised as it now is likely to mean he is more negative when it matters, as will be scared of a repeat.
 

Axle

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I think there's a real reluctance to even remotely go at British managers. Particularly those who generally have a media perception of being 'decent blokes'

Southgate, Hodgson, Bruce, Houghton etc. Never receive criticism. The failures of their team is always down to other factors. Fatigue, ownership, budget. Never the fact they're just not very good in comparison to other managers.

Also, plenty of these pundits are a waste of time. Not willing to voice anything other than a run of the mill safe answer to get further gigs.
Robson and Taylor were both vilified by the media. Big Sam was set up by them.

I think if it sells, they will print it, irrespective of nationality.
 

DJLWolf

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I'm gobsmacked by the results of this poll.As if Southgate doesn't deserve to take us to the world cup.

I'm nearly 40 and England have been a complete disgrace my whole life until this guy walked in.

Who cares about what was essentially a meaningless friendly.

I suspect these players will turn up for the world cup and do very well, just like they have done in the previous 2 tournaments.

We used to complain as fans about the fact we were good in friendlies and qualifying but woeful at tournaments.Now we are doing very well at tournaments, it seems as though we would rather focus on friendlies!!!!! Pathetic
 

WolfLing

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Harsh.
Surely you don’t mean that. A good coach should have no room for sentiment or emotion when he’s choosing a side or subbing one players.

I think Southgate is desperate to come across as a ‘good coach’ so almost goes against sentiment deliberately.

A good coach would know that his side was jaded. He would know that certain players weren’t up for a game.

There was one player that was desperate to play and give his all last night. One player that would have helped raise the team, the crowd and the atmosphere. One player that would have potentially have had the biggest impact on us getting a positive result. A good manager would recognise that.
 

clivewolves

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I read an article in The Athletic earlier about how the England fans turned on Southgate. There are some unintentionally funny lines in it, one being -

"There is a perception — one growing among England fans — that Southgate simply is not an elite coach."

I think with that type of analysis from one of its London reporters Mr. Spiers will do just fine down there.
 

Loefah

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I'm gobsmacked by the results of this poll.As if Southgate doesn't deserve to take us to the world cup.

I'm nearly 40 and England have been a complete disgrace my whole life until this guy walked in.

Who cares about what was essentially a meaningless friendly.

I suspect these players will turn up for the world cup and do very well, just like they have done in the previous 2 tournaments.

We used to complain as fans about the fact we were good in friendlies and qualifying but woeful at tournaments.Now we are doing very well at tournaments, it seems as though we would rather focus on friendlies!!!!! Pathetic

Agreed. On reflection, the scale of the booing was a bit distasteful, though it was deserved, just don't think it was needed.

Southgate deserves the World Cup at least, but like someone else said, might be time for a change afterwards.
 

Brian Law’s buses

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Never been a fan of Southgate, he’s been lucky with the runs in the Euros and WC but believe that this was more down to the team unity and the tight group of players, so the manager must have some hand in creating this.

Despicable performance last night, we have great forward thinking talent but our defensive pool is poor, why oh why go with the formation he did last night, far to negative and we never looked like breaking down a well drilled opposition, that we just could not and did not know how to break down. Hats of to Hungary, they deserve all the praise.

Change the manager? there is a poor selection of mangers out their, people say Potter/ Cooper but I just don’t buy into this. Our only way forward is to introduce new coaches to work with Southgate to try and try something new, a little more forward thinking and fingers crossed over the next few months a centre half appears that can slot into the team to add some strength. Cometh the man, cometh the moment - a fully fit and rested Maximilian Killman!
 

fleck1

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I don't get the Southgate out, we've had a long line of managers with star name's that have done nothing in major tournaments since 1966. Under Southgate we have walked through qualifying and made it to the semi final and final of last two major tournaments. Other England mangers have similar easy runs to and in tournaments, same with other nations that fell in easy qualification games and knockout rounds of tournaments. I'm sure the Italians would rather of watched a couple of flat performances in glorified friendlies with lots of players rotated, from players wanting to be on the beach after a long season and already having qualified for the world cup.
People say go out and get manager x, y, z but young up and coming managers aren't interested, they want the day to day of club football, same with all the big names.
He's proved in tournament football he can bring a squad together and create an atmosphere that brings players, fans and the country together. We had the Sven and Capello era with the so called golden generation that did absolutely nothing.
 

WolfLing

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Pointless changing managers now, there isn't enough games left. Just stick with him but honestly maybe it'll be time for a change post World Cup.

Do you think that someone like Mourinho coming in wouldn't do a better job at the World Cup than Southgate?

He's a manager that short-term tends to get results. He is a motivator and a manager that knows how to work with what he's got to win.

In that regard, he's a perfect manager for international tournament football.

The whole model might need revisiting, as the full-time England manager thing hasn't worked for us as it has for other countries.

Having someone lower profile as head coach for all the in-between games and qualifying, then a big ego, elite manager coming in for the tournaments could maybe work better for us?
 

Direwolf

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What is it with all this sympathy for this numpty of a manager? As a coach he has very little ability that I can see. The tactics of the team continuously facing their own goal playing it backwards and sideways and never turning with the ball to at least look to see if a forward pass is possible. The bloke is totally out of his depth and tactically inept. Ten minutes of sideways and back pass football that hardly crosses the halfway line and inevitably ends up back at the goalkeepers feet. Demonstrates the team has had all the flair squeezed out of it in the belief that retaining possession wins a game. It does not especially when 95% of it is in your own half, goals win games! As for keeping Kalvin back pass Phillips on the pitch for 90 minutes the way he was performing, well that says it all
 

Flump

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France 98 (not Southgate) - 2nd round
Euro 2000 (not Southgate) - out in the group stage
Japan & SK 2002 (not Southgate) - 1/4 final
Euro 2004 (not Southgate) - 1/4 final
Germany 2006 (not Southgate) - 1-4 final
Euro 2008 (not Southgate) - didn't even qualify
SA 2010 (not Southgate) - 2nd round
Euro 2012 (not Southgate) - 1/4 finals
Brazil 2014 (not Southgate) - out in the group stage
Euro 2016 (not Southgate) - 2nd round

Russia 2018 (Southgate) - semi final
Euro 2020 (Southgate) - lost the final on pens

To me that's quite compelling evidence. Certainly more so that a (admittedly terrible) week's worth of Nations League games.
 

Wednesbury Wolf

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Gareth Wokegate is establishment through and through and the pick of the London centric sports media he's here for a long time yet.
 

sc91

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France 98 (not Southgate) - 2nd round
Euro 2000 (not Southgate) - out in the group stage
Japan & SK 2002 (not Southgate) - 1/4 final
Euro 2004 (not Southgate) - 1/4 final
Germany 2006 (not Southgate) - 1-4 final
Euro 2008 (not Southgate) - didn't even qualify
SA 2010 (not Southgate) - 2nd round
Euro 2012 (not Southgate) - 1/4 finals
Brazil 2014 (not Southgate) - out in the group stage
Euro 2016 (not Southgate) - 2nd round

Russia 2018 (Southgate) - semi final
Euro 2020 (Southgate) - lost the final on pens

To me that's quite compelling evidence. Certainly more so that a (admittedly terrible) week's worth of Nations League games.
From the outside looking in, the two draws England got were so overwhelmingly lucky that how they failed is actually baffling. Luck has run out.

Id wager a group stage exit might be on the cards.
 

Wednesbury Wolf

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Ten minutes of sideways and back pass football that hardly crosses the halfway line and inevitably ends up back at the goalkeepers feet. Demonstrates the team has had all the flair squeezed out of it in the belief that retaining possession wins a game. It does not especially when 95% of it is in your own half, goals win games!
Let's hope we never get football like that at the Wolves.:rolleyes:
 

Flump

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From the outside looking in, the two draws England got were so overwhelmingly lucky that how they failed is actually baffling. Luck has run out.

Id wager a group stage exit might be on the cards.

Losing to Italy on penalties having beaten Germany - you think failing to win that competition is baffling?
 

sc91

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Losing to Italy on penalties having beaten Germany - you think failing to win that competition is baffling?
A weak Germany and one of the lowest quality Italian sides in year which swatted England aside with ease. Yet, let's ignore Colombia, Ukraine, Denmark, Panama, Switzerland, Scotland and so forth.

Also, he's come up against two real tests, Croatia and Italy, failed in both.

But hey, if England want to keep him, great, 56 years and counting and long will that number rise.
 

Flump

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A weak Germany and one of the lowest quality Italian sides in year which swatted England aside with ease. Yet, let's ignore Colombia, Ukraine, Denmark, Panama, Switzerland, Scotland and so forth.

Also, he's come up against two real tests, Croatia and Italy, failed in both.

But hey, if England want to keep him, great, 56 years and counting and long will that number rise.

So which team was good at the last Euros if Germany and Italy were so bad? Which team could England have impressed you by beating? It sounds just a little bit like you just don't like England, and so are discounting any achievements...
 

sc91

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So which team was good at the last Euros if Germany and Italy were so bad? Which team could England have impressed you by beating? It sounds just a little bit like you just don't like England, and so are discounting any achievements...
No, that's changing words. A weaker than usual German side, and an Italian side that was tipped to be exiting early doors, that's not saying they were bad, that's saying these were very clearly understrength compared to years gone by.

I'll put the achievements into context, yes, teams get absolutely lucky and good draws and to win a tournament you generally have 2 or so tough games and those are what win you the tournament. Spain when they won it had what, two hard games? But they matched those tests and got through to win. England faced two stern tests, Croatia and Italy, they lost both. So laud getting there but there will be perspective that it was an easy ride till things got tough and then failed when it mattered.

And no, that makes no sense, id rather England kept Southgate, with a top level manager (say a Mancini), England would have won the Euros.
 

Black Coffee

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The reality is of course results matter but Southgate is a dreadful coach IMO who has an embarrassment of riches available in terms of talent yet churns some truly uninspiring negative football.

His CV looks good but he's had fortunate passages in qualifying for and in tournaments. I suppose you can only beat what's in front of you but when some talk him up as a revolutionary figure for us that is weird to me

I've never taken to him and if I was him I'd walk now because he is potentially going to ruin a lot of credit he already has in the bank
 

Flump

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No, that's changing words. A weaker than usual German side, and an Italian side that was tipped to be exiting early doors, that's not saying they were bad, that's saying these were very clearly understrength compared to years gone by.

I'll put the achievements into context, yes, teams get absolutely lucky and good draws and to win a tournament you generally have 2 or so tough games and those are what win you the tournament. Spain when they won it had what, two hard games? But they matched those tests and got through to win. England faced two stern tests, Croatia and Italy, they lost both. So laud getting there but there will be perspective that it was an easy ride till things got tough and then failed when it mattered.

And no, that makes no sense, id rather England kept Southgate, with a top level manager (say a Mancini), England would have won the Euros.

It does make sense, because (as far as I know) the FA aren't watching this conversation with bated breath and deciding whether to keep Southgate based on it.

Given the previous decades of genuine failure, a WC Semi and Euros final are very good results, IMO. If England had "a Mancini" then we might not have even qualified for the next World Cup!
 

WolfLing

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France 98 (not Southgate) - 2nd round
Euro 2000 (not Southgate) - out in the group stage
Japan & SK 2002 (not Southgate) - 1/4 final
Euro 2004 (not Southgate) - 1/4 final
Germany 2006 (not Southgate) - 1-4 final
Euro 2008 (not Southgate) - didn't even qualify
SA 2010 (not Southgate) - 2nd round
Euro 2012 (not Southgate) - 1/4 finals
Brazil 2014 (not Southgate) - out in the group stage
Euro 2016 (not Southgate) - 2nd round

Russia 2018 (Southgate) - semi final
Euro 2020 (Southgate) - lost the final on pens

To me that's quite compelling evidence. Certainly more so that a (admittedly terrible) week's worth of Nations League games.

Of all the previous high-profile managers, golden generations etc, we never got it right with structure when it comes to England.

The Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) was introduced in 2012 to help with that. This bore fruit in 2017, with the U17s and U20s both winning their respective World Cups.

3 of the U17 squad started last night. 3 more have played for the senior side. A couple of the U20 squad are in the current squad too.

2016 would have been too soon for any impact of the EPPP on the senior team. So I think to look at what happened prior to 2016 and compare it directly with post 2016 is like comparing apples and pears. Years of mistakes, vs something that has been proven to improve performance across the board at every level of competition.

So all the underlying metrics support Southgate's job. The pool of talent is probably wider than it's ever been.

For those wanting Southgate out, I don't think it's because up until now he hasn't done a good job, it's because they think that with all the support and tools available to him, a better manager could maybe get more of a song out of this group of players. Southgate had done the job of changing the culture and reconnecting the team with the public. So once that's done, bring in a manager with a better CV to move that forward again, as all the hard work Southgate did is in danger of being undone.

I also think the draws we had in both of those Southgate tournaments, and home advantage in the Euros helped us massively. Would a better manager have got at least the same results he did at those tournaments? Probably. Could they have beaten Croatia and Italy? Maybe?!
 
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Flump

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Of all the previous high-profile managers, golden generations etc, we never got it right with structure when it comes to England.

The Elite Player Performance Plan (EPPP) was introduced in 2012 to help with that. This bore fruit in 2017, with the U17s and U20s both winning their respective World Cups.

3 of the U17 squad started last night. 3 more have played for the senior side. A couple of the U20 squad are in the current squad too.

2016 would have been too soon for any impact of the EPPP on the senior team. So I think to look at what happened prior to 2016 and compare it directly with post 2016 is like comparing apples and pears. Years of mistakes, vs something that has been proven to improve performance across the board at every level of competition.

So all the underlying metrics support Southgate's job. The pool of talent is probably wider than it's ever been.

For those wanting Southgate out, I don't think it's because up until now he hasn't done a good job, it's because they think that with all the support and tools available to him, a better manager could maybe get more of a song out of this group of players. Southgate had done the job of changing the culture and reconnecting the team with the public. So once that's done, bring in a manager with a better CV to move that forward again, as all the hard work Southgate did is in danger of being undone.

I also think the draws we had in both of those Southgate tournaments, and home advantage in the Euros helped us massively. Would a better manager have got at least the same results he did at those tournaments? Probably. Could they have beaten Croatia and Italy? Maybe?!

Now that's a sensible critique of his performance!

I don't really disagree with anything you've said there, but I would still think that a semi final and penalty final loss is above expectations, even taking opposition quality into account. We came within a lucky rebound missing Bonnucci's shin, or a penalty shootout, of winning the thing.

I also find it hard to imagine we'd get a genuine upgrade - who would it be? Mancini who failed to qualify for the WC? Most of the other top tier of managers wouldn't even consider a national team job.
 

Jefe

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Harsh. Surely you don’t mean that. A good coach should have no room for sentiment or emotion when he’s choosing a side or subbing one players.
I believe England had reverted to a back three by the time Stones was sent off. Even a calm, unsentimental man should've seen the value in bringing on Coady. He knows the system better, and it would've somewhat placated the Molineux crowd who were really beginning to turn on the team. Southgate wasn't thinking when he brought on Maguire; he just reverted to order of seniority, and he deservedly got a backlash.
 

Woburn Wolf

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I have always considered him a lightweight from his early days at Middlesborough and have seen nothing since to change my mind. Would love to see him gone but not sure who the "Suits" at the FA would replace him with.
 
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DJLWolf

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No, that's changing words. A weaker than usual German side, and an Italian side that was tipped to be exiting early doors, that's not saying they were bad, that's saying these were very clearly understrength compared to years gone by.

I'll put the achievements into context, yes, teams get absolutely lucky and good draws and to win a tournament you generally have 2 or so tough games and those are what win you the tournament. Spain when they won it had what, two hard games? But they matched those tests and got through to win. England faced two stern tests, Croatia and Italy, they lost both. So laud getting there but there will be perspective that it was an easy ride till things got tough and then failed when it mattered.

And no, that makes no sense, id rather England kept Southgate, with a top level manager (say a Mancini), England would have won the Euros.
Italy weren't tipped to exit early.....they went into that tournament something like 40 games unbeaten.
 

Woburn Wolf

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I wonder if Arsene Wenger would be up for it? He could get this group playing some decent attacking football.
 

Rhyl Wolf

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There is such a disconnection between the Southgate media militia & average fan on street. I have no dog in this fight as a Taff, but it would be criminal if this English squad under performs in Qatar. A truly talented bunch. I can only hope in November he sticks with Maguire/Stones, Rice/Phillips combo and leaves flair on the bench. Wales go to the WC with absolutely no expectations and the whole country behind the manager & team.
 

Stafford

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There is such a disconnection between the Southgate media militia & average fan on street. I have no dog in this fight as a Taff, but it would be criminal if this English squad under performs in Qatar. A truly talented bunch. I can only hope in November he sticks with Maguire/Stones, Rice/Phillips combo and leaves flair on the bench. Wales go to the WC with absolutely no expectations and the whole country behind the manager & team.

No one is ever behind England/ Southgate pre tournament. But that soon changes once the tournament starts. Southgate your the one will be sung up and down the country.

I get the divide with the average fan. But i think that's more with your 'Gammon' than 'woke' fan. Everything is split now. Alot of your younger crowd (20's-40's) young professionals are totally behind his 'wokeism'.
 

wolfgar

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Sacked it off after about 20 mins last night mercifully. Finding it very difficult to care much about England these days tbh. I highly doubt we will win the next WC under Southgate, or any other coach tbh (elite or not) for that matter. If it were me I'd give him Qatar and assess the situation after that. Terrible performance/result last night and whatever people think of his abilities, he has produced a semi final and a final in the last 2 tournaments so deserves some patience surely?
 

Ironfistedmonk

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I tried to watch the game last night but as with the above poster I turned off after 20 minutes, I just can't take it, the fact they played at Molineux twice and the Wolves captain didn't figure in either game is a sackable offence in itself never mind the performance
 

JOSWolf

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Made me laugh out loud when I saw a clip of Danny Murphy, taken from TalkSport a few weeks ago where he was suggesting Southgate would have been a better option for Man Utd as Head Coach than the guy they have appointed. Clueless.
 

KBWWFC

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I've slept on it and I've come to the realisation that not only am I still "Southgate out", I think it would be best for all involved if we just knock him down a well with a supply of corned beef sandwiches and brick it up until after Qatar.


The only thing he brings to the table is an affinity for lucky draws. We've been woeful since he's taken over, and we really shouldn't be. This is arguably a better "golden" generation than the 2002/2006 squads, and what do we have to show for it?

Playing for penalties Vs an ageing Italy side? Losing to a woeful Croatia?

Cut him loose. It's not too late, there's zero justification for keeping him on.
 

Bryce

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Southgate- I have never been a fan but- Others have failed miserably as England manager and he has some credit in the bank for achievements to date. That credit will wear very thin if we perform like we did in the last four games at this years world cup. Do that and he's toast.

I don't like his tactics and I see him as a defensive manager but then so was Nuno . We have some real talent and last night we were both tactically awful and professionally awful. The players looked on the beach. Its a fine line to keep a standard, maintain confidence and morale and achieve the results. But that's why he is paid to do the job. This is his mulligan. So , I have said in.
 
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