Premier League closed shop - no hope

[Darvo]

Such is the power and wealth of the top clubs, that It’s becoming increasingly obvious to me that the best we can hope for, season after premier league season, is a 7th or 8th place finish.

FFP is designed to make a challenge to the top group nigh on impossible.

There’s an old footballing saying that ‘it’s the hope that kills you’. Sadly, I’m beginning to think the opposite is true and it’s the lack of hope that now does that.

Am I being realistic or too pessimistic?

What could be done to change this?

 

[The Clock]

Such is the power and wealth of the top clubs, that It’s becoming increasingly obvious to me that the best we can hope for, season after premier league season, is a 7th or 8th place finish.

FFP is designed to make a challenge to the top group nigh on impossible.

There’s an old footballing saying that ‘it’s the hope that kills you’. Sadly, I’m beginning to think the opposite is true and it’s the lack of hope that now does that.

Am I being realistic or too pessimistic?

What could be done to change this?

Don’t worry about it
Don’t think about it
What’s next?

 

[bigwolf]

Such is the power and wealth of the top clubs, that It’s becoming increasingly obvious to me that the best we can hope for, season after premier league season, is a 7th or 8th place finish.

FFP is designed to make a challenge to the top group nigh on impossible.

There’s an old footballing saying that ‘it’s the hope that kills you’. Sadly, I’m beginning to think the opposite is true and it’s the lack of hope that now does that.

Am I being realistic or too pessimistic?

What could be done to change this?

A hard salary cap for all teams would make huge difference.

Rather than the nonsense that is FFP.

It's one of the few positive things that American sport has. It creates a much more of a level playing field and results in different teams being able to win trophies.

Latest price of football podcasts talks about it and Simon Jordan often talks about iit.

 

[cannockwolves]

I do think you are right.

Didn't some TV exec say they didn't want many Leicester City's winning the title?

The only hope is a Newcastle / Chelsea level investment, but that has to be paired with huge crowds, big ground, and associated commercial income to balance out the FFP issues.

It not like me winning the Euromillions and making Fosun an offer. You might have some fun with an Hednesford or Wrexham, but to buy a Premier league team and make an impact you need to be able to blitz £1bn and not worry about it, even then sucess is not certain - look what Chelsea spent over the last few windows.

Not only having the money (and FFP flexibility) you also have to be able to attract the top players. Fosun tried the young and hungry approach but cut the funding or over paying. It almost comes down to having two budgets, one for this season and one for players in a few years.

But there is no doubt the odds are weighted against most clubs. We really are playing for that 7th or 8th, if you do get closer the big boys pick off your best talent and it's hard to keep that convoy belt going - looks like Brighton will be picked clean this summer.

I like being in the prem, the ground is full, games have the feeling of an 'event', and I like the profile it gives us, but I did like winning more in the lower leagues.

I think the best you can hope for is to find three or four quality players in a short period of time and enjoy watching good football before they get cherry picked.

I guess my message is enjoy the journey.

 

[Leigh72]

Sad state of affairs, ramped up version of the SPL

 

[Baboon]

I really wouldn't mind if the big six or seven cleared off with their money into some European Super League. I'd love the likes of us, West Ham, Villa, Everton, Leeds, Forest etc. all to be part of a proper competition with a realistic chance of winning the title.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

Sad state of affairs, ramped up version of the SPL

La Liga, Bundesliga, Lique Un no different

 

[so-called fan]

I do think you are right.

Didn't some TV exec say they didn't want many Leicester City's winning the title?

The only hope is a Newcastle / Chelsea level investment, but that has to be paired with huge crowds, big ground, and associated commercial income to balance out the FFP issues.

It not like me winning the Euromillions and making Fosun an offer. You might have some fun with an Hednesford or Wrexham, but to buy a Premier league team and make an impact you need to be able to blitz £1bn and not worry about it, even then sucess is not certain - look what Chelsea spent over the last few windows.

Not only having the money (and FFP flexibility) you also have to be able to attract the top players. Fosun tried the young and hungry approach but cut the funding or over paying. It almost comes down to having two budgets, one for this season and one for players in a few years.

But there is no doubt the odds are weighted against most clubs. We really are playing for that 7th or 8th, if you do get closer the big boys pick off your best talent and it's hard to keep that convoy belt going - looks like Brighton will be picked clean this summer.

I like being in the prem, the ground is full, games have the feeling of an 'event', and I like the profile it gives us, but I did like winning more in the lower leagues.

I think the best you can hope for is to find three or four quality players in a short period of time and enjoy watching good football before they get cherry picked.

I guess my message is enjoy the journey.

I'm hoping to win Euromillions twice. Back-to-back wins wouldn't work though: I need the jackpot to build back up for the second one. Would £300 million be enough? Or perhaps two of us could win it a few weeks apart. Something like that.

 

[YouGottaRaulWithIt]

One thing that we could do is stop sovereign states with unlimited wealth from owning football clubs. They are not run as a business, but for the purpose of sportswashing.

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

I'm hoping to win Euromillions twice. Back-to-back wins wouldn't work though: I need the jackpot to build back up for the second one. Would £300 million be enough? Or perhaps two of us could win it a few weeks apart. Something like that.

Think you could find two people on the Mix who could agree on how to invest the £300m?

 

[so-called fan]

Think you could find two people on the Mix who could agree on how to invest the £300m?

Difficult to find two people on here who agree on what old gold is, let along investments. Are you saying the £300M would need building up somewhat before buying the club though?

 

[sc91]

Welcome to modern football

 

[Ned]

Yep… unless something drastic changes with our finances and the rules then, yea, a top 7 challenge and cup runs are the best we can hope for.

FFP has safeguarded the status quo for the foreseeable. Across the whole of Europe, not just PL.

 

[Eastyorksyeltz]

Difficult to find two people on here who agree on what old gold is, let along investments. Are you saying the £300M would need building up somewhat before buying the club though?

No, I was just using "invest" in that loose way that gamblers do. I suppose I meant agree on how to throw it down the drain in the normal way that football clubs do.

 

[bigwolf]

I really wouldn't mind if the big six or seven cleared off with their money into some European Super League. I'd love the likes of us, West Ham, Villa, Everton, Leeds, Forest etc. all to be part of a proper competition with a realistic chance of winning the title.

The opportunity was there with the superleague but everyone got their knickers in a twist rather than seeing what opportunity it presented to rebalance football.

The potential real threat is Saudia Arabia and thier plan for global dominance and control of the game. The mess with golf recently will have only emboldened them.

Money talks and they have truck loads of it.

It may be starting with some older players but don't be surprised when you start seeing genuine stars in thier prime ending up in Saudia Arabia league in a few years.

 

[Evthewolf]

I really wouldn't mind if the big six or seven cleared off with their money into some European Super League. I'd love the likes of us, West Ham, Villa, Everton, Leeds, Forest etc. all to be part of a proper competition with a realistic chance of winning the title.

The only problem is, one void soon gets filled by another. The minute you get rid of the “Sky Six”, another six will take their mantle. Everyone just moves up to the next rung on the ladder.

Hypothetically, the most fun way would be to put all the players into their respective categories. Goalkeepers, defenders, midfield and attack, etc. Put their names on a ball or whatever, like the FA cup draw and then clubs take turns in pulling out a random player.

Every player gets paid the same but you keep the coach from previous season or hire a new one. We’d soon see who the best coaches are if the playing field was levelled a bit.

 

[NorthWestWolf]

Bring on the super League and **** em all off

 

[Matt]

It is all a bit crap, tbh. We have had a great few years pushing those too 6 places but the reality is that’s probably as high as we’ll ever be, because we just can’t compete financially. It is a bit odd being in a league you have no chance of winning. It all seems a bit pointless. I kind of wish the super league happened, and all the clubs who throw billions at it can crack on outspending each other, leaving us with a competitive league with sensible financial restrictions to give everyone a chance.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

There's a misconception among Wolves fans that FFP is holding us back - yet we need it now.

If there was no rules on what you could spend, what evidence do you have that Fosun would go mad and spend loads? I have none. There's actually some justification to think they're lying about FFP to not spend now (Johnny Phillips, £50m profit article).

No restrictions means Newcastle in an instance become the best team in the world. Man City, United & Chelsea wouldn't be far behind, so whilst we dreamt of a top four finish a few years ago, it would be a long way away then.

Of course, the other big teams would still spend, and you could throw so many above us. Forest would go for it more, Villa would be right up there, and there's teams in the Championship who have wealthy owners.

We've peaked, but the fact Brighton have just finished 6th in a season that saw their manager and staff poached shows it can be done. If spending was 'anything goes' I don't envisage Brighton do that again - they may not anyway.

I think we're on a downer now because our era is over.

The reality is football has been about money for 30 years now. Jack Walker at Blackburn wasn't a fairytale. Man United stayed at the top because they always spent.

I do feel there's a lot of recency bias with this idea, that it's somehow now disgraceful, and it has got worse, but it is nothing new.

We're in a position where we can't compete financially with the others.

Then, it's about being clever - like Brighton are now. They specialise the market and identify brilliant players for cheap prices. You could argue we had our advantage by using Mendes to get brilliant players we wouldn't have otherwise brought in. That advantaged no longer exists, and we're just another club.

To add, I don't think we can really moan about the state of football. We enjoyed the ride when we spent money and brought in players that we 'shouldn't' have got. We spent, spent, spent. We probably didn't have enough to show for it to be honest. But we can't moan now we're back on a level playing field. We need to demand that Wolves improve. It's clear we have to now go down the Brighton route, so let's hope we can do it.

 

[Dorbelflunk]

We knew this already though, right? Maybe being away from the top division for long has made the reality check hurt more, but I'm sure we're not the only club who feels this way.

Would anyone be happy to say they'd rather not be around all the rich clubs and see a poorer quality, but perhaps more 'honest' football game each week?

 

[Darvo]

I really wouldn't mind if the big six or seven cleared off with their money into some European Super League. I'd love the likes of us, West Ham, Villa, Everton, Leeds, Forest etc. all to be part of a proper competition with a realistic chance of winning the title.

That’s the key point for me ... it doesn’t feel like a real, true competition any longer.

 

[WickedWolfie]

We knew this already though, right? Maybe being away from the top division for long has made the reality check hurt more, but I'm sure we're not the only club who feels this way.

Would anyone be happy to say they'd rather not be around all the rich clubs and see a poorer quality, but perhaps more 'honest' football game each week?

Given that virtually no one wanted us relegated l guess that the answer to your question is hell no!

 

[The Wolf In The North]

There's a more competitive league just below us if we want it. Or maybe we'll find ourselves there regardless.

The PL is daft, and it all does seem rather pointless sometimes, but last year Brighton, Villa, Brentford and Fulham achieved top ten and none of them are financial and commercial juggernauts. It's not the fault of the big clubs that we were dull as puddle water last season, that we were the lowest scorers, that we've averaged less than a goal a game for the past three seasons combined.

We're not going to win the league, we won't make the CL, but the aim for a club like us is surely to play more entertaining football, not get relegated, push for Europe if the chance comes again, and try and win a cup.

In a league so heavily weighted at the top, there's no shame in targeting 9th-14th each year but also throwing every effort into every cup game that comes along. If we're saying we can't compete with Brentford, Fulham and Palace, now THAT is pointless.

 

[Darvo]

There's a misconception among Wolves fans that FFP is holding us back - yet we need it now.

If there was no rules on what you could spend, what evidence do you have that Fosun would go mad and spend loads? I have none. There's actually some justification to think they're lying about FFP to not spend now (Johnny Phillips, £50m profit article).

No restrictions means Newcastle in an instance become the best team in the world. Man City, United & Chelsea wouldn't be far behind, so whilst we dreamt of a top four finish a few years ago, it would be a long way away then.

Of course, the other big teams would still spend, and you could throw so many above us. Forest would go for it more, Villa would be right up there, and there's teams in the Championship who have wealthy owners.

We've peaked, but the fact Brighton have just finished 6th in a season that saw their manager and staff poached shows it can be done. If spending was 'anything goes' I don't envisage Brighton do that again - they may not anyway.

I think we're on a downer now because our era is over.

The reality is football has been about money for 30 years now. Jack Walker at Blackburn wasn't a fairytale. Man United stayed at the top because they always spent.

I do feel there's a lot of recency bias with this idea, that it's somehow now disgraceful, and it has got worse, but it is nothing new.

We're in a position where we can't compete financially with the others.

Then, it's about being clever - like Brighton are now. They specialise the market and identify brilliant players for cheap prices. You could argue we had our advantage by using Mendes to get brilliant players we wouldn't have otherwise brought in. That advantaged no longer exists, and we're just another club.

To add, I don't think we can really moan about the state of football. We enjoyed the ride when we spent money and brought in players that we 'shouldn't' have got. We spent, spent, spent. We probably didn't have enough to show for it to be honest. But we can't moan now we're back on a level playing field. We need to demand that Wolves improve. It's clear we have to now go down the Brighton route, so let's hope we can do it.

“But we can’t moan now we’re back on a level playing field” ... kind of misses the point.

 

[reanswolf]

I used to dream of seeing Wolves win the FA Cup. Now I couldn’t give a toss about it.

The way I approach football is game to game, week to week. Winning an individual game at this level feels like winning a cup, well almost.

I will always treasure winning the League Cup, the Sherpa Van, the Play Off Final, the Championship under Chung, McCarthy and Nuno especially.

But it’s game to game rather than individual competitions now. We are at our peak, we can’t go further really, and that’s quite soul destroying and can affect our psyche.

But then football is all about the day, the social side, meeting mates, singing in Magees after a win.

Wloves forever !!

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

“But we can’t moan now we’re back on a level playing field” ... kind of misses the point.

Does it?

It was the same situation a few years ago but we thought we had the money/ambition to complete.

Yet the Burnley’s, Sheffield United’s etc. knew they couldn’t compete but were you bothered for them?

I generally agree with your point though, it is **** that we’re now one of the sides just doing nothing. Hanging about to be relegated

 

[Dorbelflunk]

I used to dream of seeing Wolves win the FA Cup. Now I couldn’t give a toss about it.

I still love watching the first to third rounds of the FA cup. Once the pros join in the magic is almost gone, save for an occasional giant killing.

 

[Ian]

There's a misconception among Wolves fans that FFP is holding us back - yet we need it now.

If there was no rules on what you could spend, what evidence do you have that Fosun would go mad and spend loads? I have none. There's actually some justification to think they're lying about FFP to not spend now (Johnny Phillips, £50m profit article).

No restrictions means Newcastle in an instance become the best team in the world. Man City, United & Chelsea wouldn't be far behind, so whilst we dreamt of a top four finish a few years ago, it would be a long way away then.

Of course, the other big teams would still spend, and you could throw so many above us. Forest would go for it more, Villa would be right up there, and there's teams in the Championship who have wealthy owners.

We've peaked, but the fact Brighton have just finished 6th in a season that saw their manager and staff poached shows it can be done. If spending was 'anything goes' I don't envisage Brighton do that again - they may not anyway.

I think we're on a downer now because our era is over.

The reality is football has been about money for 30 years now. Jack Walker at Blackburn wasn't a fairytale. Man United stayed at the top because they always spent.

I do feel there's a lot of recency bias with this idea, that it's somehow now disgraceful, and it has got worse, but it is nothing new.

We're in a position where we can't compete financially with the others.

Then, it's about being clever - like Brighton are now. They specialise the market and identify brilliant players for cheap prices. You could argue we had our advantage by using Mendes to get brilliant players we wouldn't have otherwise brought in. That advantaged no longer exists, and we're just another club.

To add, I don't think we can really moan about the state of football. We enjoyed the ride when we spent money and brought in players that we 'shouldn't' have got. We spent, spent, spent. We probably didn't have enough to show for it to be honest. But we can't moan now we're back on a level playing field. We need to demand that Wolves improve. It's clear we have to now go down the Brighton route, so let's hope we can do it.

I'd argue " football has been about money" since the 60's and the abolishment of the minimum wage, no coincidence that Wolves decline from Champions of the World to relegation happened at the same time......
We couldnt or wouldnt ( Cullis was dead against inducements) compete with the clubs that wanted to splash the cash and the talent pool from our feeder clubs went elsewhere.
Salary cap has merit but they have that in the Australian A-league and there seems to be ways and means around it and you still have your rich and poor teams ( Melb City have dominated in recent years and they are backed by the City Group... ie; Man City).

 

[Matthew Clark]

When the Super League was first mooted around 12-15 years ago I was very against it as it would take clubs like Utd, Arsenal, Liverpool out of the PL and would be a detriment to English football. Now i hope it comes back so these 'big 6/7' clubs **** off to it and open the PL to better competition.

And I do not want to think like that but i do.

This Middle Eastern ownership needs to be banned. Its bad enough with city and Newcastle being state owned but you got also got the Qatari's bidding for Utd and if they don't get Utd then they surely will go for a club like Spurs, Liverpool or even West Ham and it will get even harder for the rest of us clubs to try and win a a trophy

 

[northnorfolkwolf]

We haven't won anything for decades; nothing now has changed. The Prem situation is such that is why each season I dream of Wolves winning the FA Cup or the LC, something we have a decent chance in and why I get so upset when we play weakened sides. I'd like to think we could do a 'West Ham' sometime soon in Europe but I have my doubts tbh. As for the Prem a top 10 finish is pretty good for us imo so what Nuno did in those first 2 seasons is quite remarkable.

 

[Darvo]

Does it?

It was the same situation a few years ago but we thought we had the money/ambition to complete.

Yet the Burnley’s, Sheffield United’s etc. knew they couldn’t compete but were you bothered for them?

I generally agree with your point though, it is **** that we’re now one of the sides just doing nothing. Hanging about to be relegated

Do you honestly, truly believe that we are competing on a “level playing field”?

 

[Darvo]

I used to dream of seeing Wolves win the FA Cup. Now I couldn’t give a toss about it.

The way I approach football is game to game, week to week. Winning an individual game at this level feels like winning a cup, well almost.

I will always treasure winning the League Cup, the Sherpa Van, the Play Off Final, the Championship under Chung, McCarthy and Nuno especially.

But it’s game to game rather than individual competitions now. We are at our peak, we can’t go further really, and that’s quite soul destroying and can affect our psyche.

But then football is all about the day, the social side, meeting mates, singing in Magees after a win.

Wloves forever !!

Completely agree. Like most here, I’m a complete Wolves nut and still love match day... but more and more for social reasons ... rather than the match.

 

[inaglasshouse]

There's a more competitive league just below us if we want it. Or maybe we'll find ourselves there regardless.

The PL is daft, and it all does seem rather pointless sometimes, but last year Brighton, Villa, Brentford and Fulham achieved top ten and none of them are financial and commercial juggernauts. It's not the fault of the big clubs that we were dull as puddle water last season, that we were the lowest scorers, that we've averaged less than a goal a game for the past three seasons combined.

We're not going to win the league, we won't make the CL, but the aim for a club like us is surely to play more entertaining football, not get relegated, push for Europe if the chance comes again, and try and win a cup.

In a league so heavily weighted at the top, there's no shame in targeting 9th-14th each year but also throwing every effort into every cup game that comes along. If we're saying we can't compete with Brentford, Fulham and Palace, now THAT is pointless.

We scored more under Lupotegui and hopefully with some modest investment that trend will continue

 

[NorthWolf]

This Middle Eastern ownership needs to be banned. Its bad enough with city and Newcastle being state owned but you got also got the Qatari's bidding for Utd and if they don't get Utd then they surely will go for a club like Spurs, Liverpool or even West Ham and it will get even harder for the rest of us clubs to try and win a a trophy

Er dude not Spurs...

 

[manchesterwolf17]

When the prospect of us qualifying for the Conference League in 2022 was there, and more annoying than that, when we had a QF against a very beatable Nottingham Forest, I heard plenty of fans voicing their meh attitude toward both. That sort of crap needs eradicating. We could have got to the League Cup Final this season. I envied West Ham fans so much last night.

It's not doom and gloom by any means. You can still enjoy supporting a football club outside of the other 6/7, who play enjoyable football and on their day are capable of beating anyone. But you have to be serious when it comes to opportunities like we had last season. There's always an excuse not to take a cup seriously. Not that it HAS to be either or, but I guarantee Wigan fans will remember winning the FA Cup until the day they die, rather than being a bit part in the Premier League. And those who sneer at that don't get it imo.

 

[Cookyssweetleftfoot]

I think most of us would love to be in a European final like West Ham, but seeing the news tonight that they offered Declan Rice 200k a week 18 months ago shows how far we are even from what was a similar sized club to us not that long ago.
Guess it helps to have your political mates on board gifting you the opportunity to play in a much bigger stadium for a peppercorn rent and all the additional revenue the increased attendances bring with that.

 

[Metal Wolf89]

Newcastle made a couple of additions but mainly had the same squad as last season. Eddie Howe got them a top four finish. Right manager and tactics can go a long way. Heck look at Brighton under Zerbi..

 

[Skrilla]

Of course, it massively benefits the clubs at the top that generate the most revenue, so in that sense, yes it is a closed shop because of FFP. It does protect clubs from bankrupting themselves, but I think the underlying motive with introducing FFP was to ensure these top clubs aren't threatened.

It hasn't always worked, as clubs like Arsenal and Chelsea have slid out in recent years, and that's why the Super League was designed, to create a literal closed shop without hiding behind the curtain of FFP, and it backfired dramatically because of how blatant it was.

The only real answer is as others say, creating competitive balance through a salary cap or similar, but that only works in US sports because those leagues don't have a promotion/relegation system, it's the same teams contending every year so it's fair to put them all on an equal footing. That is also factoring in that there is no transfer window system in those leagues where fees are paid for players, there are trades, player for player, or for draft picks which are used to select the best players at an equivalent of academy level (the worst team in the previous year gets the first pick of the best youth player).

It just doesn't translate at all because of those key differences. American sports have nailed competitive balance with the salary cap and drafting system, but there is no feeder league for drafting like college sports in the US, and no promotion/relegation makes it much easier to regulate a salary cap system.

Would it be right for Luton Town to spend as much as Manchester United, despite one club generating significantly more TV revenues for the league on the whole? That's the argument those clubs at the top will have, despite the fact in US sports some teams do have a much larger market share, but still share the same salary cap that the "small market" teams have to operate with. It's not perfect either, often the bigger market teams find it much easier to recruit top players in free agency, so naturally, they still end up rising to the top.

There's no easy answer really. You just have to hit it right with a top manager and a top scouting system that rarely produces duds. Leicester won the league, Newcastle are top 4, Brighton are 6th on a relatively small budget. It can be done, but only if you operate pragmatically. You can't beat the big boys at their own game in terms of spending power.

 

[sc91]

Newcastle made a couple of additions but mainly had the same squad as last season. Eddie Howe got them a top four finish. Right manager and tactics can go a long way. Heck look at Brighton under Zerbi..

Newcastle, the club backed by the Saudi state?

Brighton, the club currently getting pulled apart?

Cracking examples.

 

[Dr Wolfenstein]

It is all a bit crap, tbh. We have had a great few years pushing those too 6 places but the reality is that’s probably as high as we’ll ever be, because we just can’t compete financially. It is a bit odd being in a league you have no chance of winning. It all seems a bit pointless. I kind of wish the super league happened, and all the clubs who throw billions at it can crack on outspending each other, leaving us with a competitive league with sensible financial restrictions to give everyone a chance.

Just like Formula One-a pre-ordained procession in which the majority of drivers' ambitions are limited to the odd podium place.