POLL - Bruno Lage: Stick or Twist

[Notsoslimshady]

Yes, and in nearly every case, when players don't change the team doesn't change. Just look at this season. Villa ,Leeds, Norwich, Everton all changed managers during the season. And the broad pattern of none of those teams changed. Newcastle brought in a manager and 5 or 6 significant signings. They improved.

That is what happens maybe 90% of the time. Key players of that finished 7th and the quarter final side have gone, or in Rauls case, been seriously injured. At that point, we had also been remarkably injury free for a couple of seasons. Once injuries hit Raul, Jonny, Neto , Boly then you are not fielding that team that finished 7th any more.

The squad has now weakened since promotion, I reckon. Though with everyone fit, there's not that much in it . We definitely haven't kicked on, that's the problem. How much say the manager has in signings, doesn't seem anybody really knows, but neither Nuno or Bruno seem to be getting the players they mention they would like. I totally agree that squad was one or 2 players from being a major force - but they needed to be top quality players, not hopefuls of other clubs cast offs. Instead we went the other way, and lost key players and simply haven't replaced them.

Bruno isn't Klopp, but you can't blame him (or Nuno) for that state of affairs we are in - he has inherited it. Would take a strong character to challenge our owners and I'm not sure they even want that.

Oh, and one of the strengths was that Nuno developed a way of playing that got the very best out of a couple of players. However, in the end, that way (well organised, stay deep and counter) got found out by opponents and was complained about a lot by fans. Nuno couldn't get them playing any other way last season, either, could he?

I mentioned Klopp as he was compared in the post i quoted, with my intention that his track record justified more time, as opposed to someone who had a good first season abd a poor second one.

Yes, the examples you mention have sone relevance. But Norwich were hardly likely to change too much. Leeds had a soecific way of playing under Bielsa and aside of 2 or maybe more good plsyers had probably done well to be where they were. Villa made signings following Gerrard's appointment and Everton are an enigma. There are also times when new managers rejuvenate some players and get better results out of the same group

As for last season; i think it was a perfect storm: we had just had a very long season with a lot of players playing most ganes. Shafted by the small gap between seasons and i think there was a lot of fatigue. I think the Raul injury shook the squad, and the other injuries, and the covid lot didn't help at all. Especially as we lost Jota and Doherty, and i think picked the wrong time to try and change. I agree that teams had worked us out to a degree, but as per the above, there was more to it.

I appreciate that there are changes to some our key players. But Neves is a better player now. I think as good as Boly has been in the prem, Kilman has been (at least close). Jonny has had a lot of good games considering. We have Sa for Rui. Semedo for Doherty. Neto for Jota.

I appreciate what you say but i don't agree with 'nearly every case'. Some managers get to bring in more players than others, but they still have a fair section of the existing players.

 

[Bob Wolf]

I’m not normally for sacking managers. I like Bruno as a guy but I think he should go if we can get a proven replacement like Lopetegui. We need a big overhaul and I don’t trust Bruno to be the one to implement it. I think if you look at our overall performances, xg and xpoints throughout the season it is clear that our league position is elevated compared to the performances we have given.

His main brief was to improve the quality of football and be more expansive - I realise he probably hasn’t got the tools for this but in my mind we have gone backwards and we should be looking to move on.

 

[Bob Wolf]

This says it all for me. From wolves analytics on Twitter. Considering the team is roughly the same.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

View attachment 28059
This says it all for me. From wolves analytics on Twitter. Considering the team is roughly the same.

xG differential puts us the 4th worst team in the league, that is a little low for me but not by a massive amount.

 

[Bryce]

I think he probably should go but I would not be surprised if we kept him. I dont know how well he gets on with Moutinho , but as the clubs senior pro perhaps he could have more influence next season? Depends if he stays and if he wants to get into coaching. Just dont get him coaching set pieces as our dead ball tactics are flaccid. Ruddy going is the right move and probably true of 3 or 4 more. I want to keep Neves but there are too many suitors for him and the money will help the rebuild. Plus , who would deny Rubes the chance of medals with a top club? I just hope he goes abroad. I dont want to see him in another teams shirt at Molineux. It has been hard enough seeing Jota excel at Liverpool.
I never understood the decision from Fosun to appoint him and not give him the funds to bring the players in he wants. Given the last three months you could argue that they were wise, but equally if he did have the players he wanted would he have got a better tune out of them? Besides, who would we get? I dont want us becoming a Watford and changing manager three times a season. We would only get the next Mendes client off the rank and that is probably Gattusso. Would his brand of football be any more exciting than Lage? Its a real conundrum. If they are sticking they have to let him spend and build the team he wants. If he does that and we get better home performances and more goals I would happily take a lower league position as we would be re-building, as long as we stay up. This squad has been stale for two years under two managers and neither have managed to get a consistent tune out of them. Turn a few over and bring some fresh faces in.

So what is improving is the perfromances of the younger players. Fabio looks stronger and a yard quicker. Ait Nouri has excellent stats defensively , for a player whose defending was seen as a bit weak when he first arrived. Lage has a reputation of bring on young players. We seem to have an ethos of buy them young , bring them on and sell for profit. It should be a good match in theory Bruno and Fosun. Perhaps that question will be easier to answer once we see the Fosun intent this summer.

 

[St. Lukes Reserves]

Sacking him is fine but how do you attract a better replacement if you refuse to sign the players he wants. I can't see a top manager wanting to put his reputation on the line if he's being asked to work with one hand tied behind his back.

 

[WickedWolfie]

look what happened at Benfica. he started well and then form completly fell of a cliff. the last 3 months have been relegation form with no sign of anything changing.

At Benfica he fell out with the players. Here the reports suggest the same thing has happened. Who is the common factor? We have enough Portuguese players that the dressing room will know all about what went on at the former.....

 

[JOSWolf]

His comments on Hwang today make me even more convinced he should be on his bike ASAP.

 

[Wednesbury Wolf]

Sacking him is fine but how do you attract a better replacement if you refuse to sign the players he wants. I can't see a top manager wanting to put his reputation on the line if he's being asked to work with one hand tied behind his back.

That's right as the Wolves operate unlike any other football club no manager who had a shred of integrity could work to such parameters. Saying that there are a few managers who have no integrity and would be willing to be a manager in name only whilst selling and buying players which they have zero say in.

 

[Bugsy911]

His comments on Hwang today make me even more convinced he should be on his bike ASAP.

Anything Hwang related should deserve the sack, I really cant see how he stays after the run of results we have had.

 

[WasStefan]

I’d take Nuno back, that’s how i feel about Bruno. Day by day i’m becoming more and more anti-Lage and Shi. I think we are in big trouble next season

 

[Bugsy911]

I’d take Nuno back, that’s how i feel about Bruno. Day by day i’m becoming more and more anti-Lage and Shi. I think we are in big trouble next season

Exactly the same as I feel , we have messed up so bad needing to replace probably half a team and if the incomings don't work will be in a world of trouble.

 

[WickedWolfie]

That's right as the Wolves operate unlike any other football club no manager who had a shred of integrity could work to such parameters. Saying that there are a few managers who have no integrity and would be willing to be a manager in name only whilst selling and buying players which they have zero say in.

You obviously don't have the faintest clue about how top-level football has increasingly operated for the last 20+ years (and much longer in most of Europe). Fergie and Wenger were the last old school managers in top-level English football (Fat Sam was a sort of missing link) and even the latter, screaming and kicking, had a director of football imposed over his head.
We have not had a "manager" (your use of that term says it all about your dinosaur views) since Mick left. We have had a succession of various individuals in the role of "head coach". They are one among several to decide on squad composition.
You won't find any club in the PL where things are very different. In many cases the head coach pretty much takes what he is given.

Edited to add:
If we were, God forbid when you look what a shambles Mick left us, to appoint an old-school manager Lage is absolutely the last person l'd want in the post.

 

[Fenrir_]

Something else has to be said, because it's gradually wound me up more and more since Sunday! Lage's final sub, for the last few minutes with Liverpool in control of the game, giving Trincao a run out. Now, nothing in particular against Trincao in this instance, but he's not our player, did he just do this to **** off Podence, Silva and Chiquinho who ARE our players? Seemed a really weird change, and not one that would curry much favour (but then perhaps he knows he's beyond any favour now)

 

[Alex Rae The Substitute]

Not a huge fan of these options.

I think overall he’s delivered a satisfactory season. Top 10, the majority would have taken at the start of the season.

I am very worried about the similarities of our current form, and the latter stages of his Benfica days. Plus we’re likely losing Neves, Traore, Moutinho, Saiss, Ruddy (as a minimum). Is he or the current recruiting setup the people we need to deliver on the required rebuild? So hard to tell.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Something else has to be said, because it's gradually wound me up more and more since Sunday! Lage's final sub, for the last few minutes with Liverpool in control of the game, giving Trincao a run out. Now, nothing in particular against Trincao in this instance, but he's not our player, did he just do this to **** off Podence, Silva and Chiquinho who ARE our players? Seemed a really weird change, and not one that would curry much favour (but then perhaps he knows he's beyond any favour now)

Unless he thought that it might persuade Trincao to sign.....

 

[WickedWolfie]

Not a huge fan of these options.

I think overall he’s delivered a satisfactory season. Top 10, the majority would have taken at the start of the season.

I am very worried about the similarities of our current form, and the latter stages of his Benfica days. Plus we’re likely losing Neves, Traore, Moutinho, Saiss, Ruddy (as a minimum). Is he or the current recruiting setup the people we need to deliver on the required rebuild? So hard to tell.

Re your second para first sentence also our worst form of last season so zero improvement

 

[WalsallWolf]

Different manager would ultimately bring the same problems IMHO. The club and playing side needs a rebuild. We have almost become a better version of the McCarthy side of 2011 in that the squad ultimately needs a revamp. We are stagnate. I even think one or two are too comfortable.

Lopetegui while he would be an upgrade IMO would probably have us set up in a back five because our center halves are just not good enough. This must must must be addressed before anything else.

 

[Fifty Niner]

Can’t see Bruno being given the boot. Not many alternatives out there and I’m sure he and they (the suits) will want to give him a season where he can properly implement his own system of play with players who are capable of making it happen out on the pitch.

 

[Contrarian]

xG differential puts us the 4th worst team in the league, that is a little low for me but not by a massive amount.

You have to be wary of all stats. XG is useful, but there are always some odd ones. Arsenal consistently did better than their XG for years - when they had Aubameyang at peak, as the main reason. For us, I think it's Sa saving us on numerous occasions that means we have outperformed our XG. Certainly isn't down to clinical finishing! It's our "XG against", where apparently we have conceded 15 goals fewer than we should have.

On finishing, it's hilarious that the only one of our forwards who has actually exceeded his XG, hence done better than his chances suggest, is the much despised Hwang. Thanks to those finishes at Newcastle, presumably, as he hasn't done anything since. Though neither have the other forwards, it seems our defenders, midfielders and opponents own goals are our best finishers.

Either way, we desperately need to address our goal scoring else we will struggle next season. What's Aubameyang doing these days ? A side that both concedes *and* scores 15 more than it's XG would be Champions League contenders, easy.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

You have to be wary of all stats. XG is useful, but there are always some odd ones. Arsenal consistently did better than their XG for years - when they had Aubameyang at peak, as the main reason. For us, I think it's Sa saving us on numerous occasions that means we have outperformed our XG. Certainly isn't down to clinical finishing! It's our "XG against", where apparently we have conceded 15 goals fewer than we should have.

On finishing, it's hilarious that the only one of our forwards who has actually exceeded his XG, hence done better than his chances suggest, is the much despised Hwang. Thanks to those finishes at Newcastle, presumably, as he hasn't done anything since. Though neither have the other forwards, it seems our defenders, midfielders and opponents own goals are our best finishers.

Either way, we desperately need to address our goal scoring else we will struggle next season. What's Aubameyang doing these days ? A side that both concedes *and* scores 15 more than it's XG would be Champions League contenders, easy.

That isn't what out performing xG means at all. We didn't out perform xG, we were about flat with it because we created so few chances. Our goalkeeper can have no impact on our xG, our xGA sure but that doesn't have any relevance to our xG.

Arsenal had a year of overperforming their xG and next season sacked their manager. Their xG was very similar they just stopped finishing at an elite level as it is very difficult to do. Chance creation is the key

Feel like one of us has to be careful with stats but i don't think it's me.

Literally have no idea what the rest of that means. A team who concedes 15 more goals than expected would win the champions league? Yeah don't think you understand the stat at all

 

[Timberwolf]

I'm starting to find that out, mate!

Awwww! I feel really bad now for having a different opinion to you.
I’m sorwwy!

 

[Contrarian]

That isn't what out performing xG means at all. We didn't out perform xG, we were about flat with it because we created so few chances. Our goalkeeper can have no impact on our xG, our xGA sure but that doesn't have any relevance to our xG.

Arsenal had a year of overperforming their xG and next season sacked their manager. Their xG was very similar they just stopped finishing at an elite level as it is very difficult to do. Chance creation is the key

Feel like one of us has to be careful with stats but i don't think it's me.

Literally have no idea what the rest of that means. A team who concedes 15 more goals than expected would win the champions league? Yeah don't think you understand the stat at all

I was agreeing with you. Just need to be more careful to use xPts not Xg. I wasnt' expecting forensic analysis, I think you know what I mean, but are being disagreeable for some reason. Whatever, our league table position clearly outperforms our XG position.

What I meant was that a team with a clinical striker who gave you a Goals For around 15 higher than your XG goals for, combined with a team that, as we did, has a goals conceded around 15 lower than the goals conceded XG, then that aforementioned team could well be challenging for a top 4 place.

It would be a lot easier just to get a goal scorer or two in, though that opens up the whole can of worms as to whether our goal scoring problems are down to our forwards, midfield, defence or any combination of them.

Feel free to twist that around to whatever you want to disagree with , if that makes you a happy bunny.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Problem is our ingredients are decent, we've just got Baldrick as the chef

How would you like your turnip???

 

[WickedWolfie]

Whether he got backing or not he didn’t make the most of the ingredients he had. Things seemed to go pear shaped the more players he got back from injury. When we had a limited squad we had our best points return. When he had choices he invariably chose the wrong one, even when it’s obvious to others. By the way if Hwang is the answer the question is irrelevant and wrong.

He didn’t seem to learn from either his success of failures. We played abysmally vs Norwich 3 times. We lose to Norwich badly in the cup but then repeat the performance vs Palace, Brighton and Norwich again! That’s not a coach on top of their game. We put in a fantastic display vs Man City at the Etihad and lose by a dodgy penalty, he then decides to play an open game at Molineux playing a young wide forward at Wing Back who’s never played there, then drops him for next game even though he was MOM. A decent coach would have recognised the slide we were on and put a pragmatic approach in place to at least secure points in games but when the likes of Pukki is exposing Boly and Coady by doing exactly the same runs as Danny Welbeck had done two weeks before questions have to be asked.

I am also tired of it being everyone else’s fault. From the players not listening, to the board not buying players, to the referee being wrong or not making the most of ‘our moments’ it’s always someone else’s fault. He never takes responsibility, even when he seems to you actually find he’s blaming someone else for being rubbish.

To quote a former boss of mine "Lage has shoulders like a glass Coke bottle"....

 

[WickedWolfie]

I was agreeing with you. Just need to be more careful to use xPts not Xg. I wasnt' expecting forensic analysis, I think you know what I mean, but are being disagreeable for some reason. Whatever, our league table position clearly outperforms our XG position.

What I meant was that a team with a clinical striker who gave you a Goals For around 15 higher than your XG goals for, combined with a team that, as we did, has a goals conceded around 15 lower than the goals conceded XG, then that aforementioned team could well be challenging for a top 4 place.

It would be a lot easier just to get a goal scorer or two in, though that opens up the whole can of worms as to whether our goal scoring problems are down to our forwards, midfield, defence or any combination of them.

Feel free to twist that around to whatever you want to disagree with , if that makes you a happy bunny.

To be fair to jwolfie your typo seriously changed the implied meaning of your post he commented on. You pair actually seem to be in broad agreement.

 

[Contrarian]

To be fair to jwolfie your typo seriously changed the implied meaning of your post he commented on. You pair actually seem to be in broad agreement.

I know, I think he enjoys teasing me! And it is my fault for not being bothered to double check wot I rote.

 

[Elvis Wolf]

Keep him.
Give him serious financial backing and THEN judge his ability .
Far too many on here, determined to see him leave.
He won a Manager of the Month award, earlier in the season, as a reflection of his achievements! For goodness sake give the guy some credit.

Both Coady AND Neves voiced extremely complementary assessments, about his coaching skills and game plans.

Wolves ONLY Wolves!

 

[Loefah]

Better to judge his ability based on what we've seen this season rather than some speculative outcome after he's spent a load of money. That doesn't make any sense at all.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Keep him.
Give him serious financial backing and THEN judge his ability .
Far too many on here, determined to see him leave.
He won a Manager of the Month award, earlier in the season, as a reflection of his achievements! For goodness sake give the guy some credit.

Both Coady AND Neves voiced extremely complementary assessments, about his coaching skills and game plans.

Wolves ONLY Wolves!

Nuno won Manager of the month for Spuds in August. He was fired within another two months. Says it all about what that award means. I saw zero "achievements" from Lage and was bored rigid.

 

[Fenrir_]

Keep him.
Give him serious financial backing and THEN judge his ability .
Far too many on here, determined to see him leave.
He won a Manager of the Month award, earlier in the season, as a reflection of his achievements! For goodness sake give the guy some credit.

Both Coady AND Neves voiced extremely complementary assessments, about his coaching skills and game plans.

Wolves ONLY Wolves!

This is seriously bonkers

Throw a load of money at it and hope that someone who hasn't cut the mustard so far suddenly will?

What happens if he repeats it? You've wasted a ton of money, probably wasted another season, possibly got into relegation trouble and for what? To give an unproven bloke a chance!

Get rid, let someone else take a chance on him

 

[wwbug]

Sacking him is fine but how do you attract a better replacement if you refuse to sign the players he wants. I can't see a top manager wanting to put his reputation on the line if he's being asked to work with one hand tied behind his back.

To be fair that is why we don’t need to wait until August to decide on Fosuns intentions this summer.
If Lage is here in June we are playing lowball next year.
We could get a better manager if Fosun said it was going to substantially rebuild with funds released by big sales.

 

[Elvis Wolf]

Nuno won Manager of the month for Spuds in August. He was fired within another two months. Says it all about what that award means. I saw zero "achievements" from Lage and was bored rigid.

AND we seemed to go downhill, following Bruno's award.
It appeared to act as a catalyst, for everything negative that followed!
From being contenders for a European Place, to relegation form and extremely disgruntled supporters.

 

[Elvis Wolf]

This is seriously bonkers

Throw a load of money at it and hope that someone who hasn't cut the mustard so far suddenly will?

What happens if he repeats it? You've wasted a ton of money, probably wasted another season, possibly got into relegation trouble and for what? To give an unproven bloke a chance!

Get rid, let someone else take a chance on him

Whatever.

 

[Deleted member sbk12944]

This is seriously bonkers

Throw a load of money at it and hope that someone who hasn't cut the mustard so far suddenly will?

What happens if he repeats it? You've wasted a ton of money, probably wasted another season, possibly got into relegation trouble and for what? To give an unproven bloke a chance!

Get rid, let someone else take a chance on him

If we had kept Nuno and given him the backing Bruno has been given I think we would have been worse than 10th, would that mean Nuno is clueless or because he had some in the bank a little leeway would have been given? Especially as most of the squad were players he wanted/signed (as far as we know anyway)

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Shi & Sellars are the issue

This is going down the same Nuno path disagreements with the hierarchy

 

[Fenrir_]

Whatever.

Yeah great argument there

Let's look at your arguments. Manager of the Month... yeah that's no reason to keep him. It's solely based on results in a calendar month, good performance and win at Man U, outplayed at Molineux by Southampton but got goals at good times and then a win at mighty Brentford where the most entertaining part of the match involved drone spotting, and you want to use those three games as reason to back him!

Coady and Neves spoke well of him. Find me a player that speaks ill of their head coach when asked by the press about them, how naive can someone be? They're hardly gonna turn round and say "he treats us like kids and we're fed up of him not taking any of the blame" are they?

So to reiterate, you want to give a complete novice big backing, and then judge him, when you've had a season of seeing his failings close up

As I said, bonkers, totally bonkers

If we had kept Nuno and given him the backing Bruno has been given I think we would have been worse than 10th would that mean Nuno is clueless or because he had some in the bank a little leeway would have been given?

If Nuno had stayed on and served up what Lage has, I've no doubt he'd be out the door. I'd also disagree we'd be worse than 10th, we've made a massive downgrade appointing Lage. People think it's been an improvement because position wise it's been better than last season but last season anything that could go wrong did go wrong, it was a perfect storm. Liverpool suffered similarly and they finished about 30 points behind their total the previous season but were able to reset in the summer and got back to the norm that they know under Klopp. This season the football here has somehow got worse, what we've had different to last year that's helped is an excellent keeper performance and far fewer costly individual errors which has kept the goals against down and helped get us some points we really haven't deserved

The 'expected' tables have been floating around, and for context, in 18/19 our 'expected' points had us 6th, in 19/20 it was 5th and last year it was 13th - it's usually pretty accurate. Our xPts for this season has us 17th, how many people would be saying give Lage the keys if we'd finished 17th?

 

[Deleted member sbk12944]

Yeah great argument there

Let's look at your arguments. Manager of the Month... yeah that's no reason to keep him. It's solely based on results in a calendar month, good performance and win at Man U, outplayed at Molineux by Southampton but got goals at good times and then a win at mighty Brentford where the most entertaining part of the match involved drone spotting, and you want to use those three games as reason to back him!

Coady and Neves spoke well of him. Find me a player that speaks ill of their head coach when asked by the press about them, how naive can someone be? They're hardly gonna turn round and say "he treats us like kids and we're fed up of him not taking any of the blame" are they?

So to reiterate, you want to give a complete novice big backing, and then judge him, when you've had a season of seeing his failings close up

As I said, bonkers, totally bonkers


If Nuno had stayed on and served up what Lage has, I've no doubt he'd be out the door. I'd also disagree we'd be worse than 10th, we've made a massive downgrade appointing Lage. People think it's been an improvement because position wise it's been better than last season but last season anything that could go wrong did go wrong, it was a perfect storm. Liverpool suffered similarly and they finished about 30 points behind their total the previous season but were able to reset in the summer and got back to the norm that they know under Klopp. This season the football here has somehow got worse, what we've had different to last year that's helped is an excellent keeper performance and far fewer costly individual errors which has kept the goals against down and helped get us some points we really haven't deserved

The 'expected' tables have been floating around, and for context, in 18/19 our 'expected' points had us 6th, in 19/20 it was 5th and last year it was 13th - it's usually pretty accurate. Our xPts for this season has us 17th, how many people would be saying give Lage the keys if we'd finished 17th?

We didn’t finish 17th though and I just think he deserves a chance to get a bunch of players he can mold into the way he wants to play. Implementing it is different but I’m patient especially with the backing any manager seems to get the last few years. Just opinions.

 

[Eastern Wolf]

Seemed like he lost control of the players. Never easy when you inherit a team - especially from a tough personality like Nuno. Maybe would be better if he had his own players but how much that cost? And he did make some strange decisions during the course of the year and didnt seem to be able to motivate his players. A new coach would need to be someone with a strong character that the players would look up and listen to - like all the best coaches. But they are not easy to find. Glad its not my job.

 

[wwbug]

We didn’t finish 17th though and I just think he deserves a chance to get a bunch of players he can mold into the way he wants to play. Implementing it is different but I’m patient especially with the backing any manager seems to get the last few years. Just opinions.

Getting a bunch of players , say 6 , costs a fortune. Say to replace Saiss Neves, Dendoncker , Podence , Jimenez and Traore . You have to really trust the guys who are going to spend that . That still leaves us with Hwang and Silva