Poland v England

[IANWILSON]

Mount should of been subbed along with Phillips. Sterling needs to be less selfish. Decent point but should of been 3.

 

[jrpb-3]

I’m sure that there was an incident involving us last season where a player needed treatment during ‘injury time’ and the extra time wasn’t added and one of our resident refs on here informed us that stoppages after the 90 minutes aren’t added on.

long injury near end of game that went on well past the 90 before game resumed. Confusion was that only time up to the and of the match 90 mins added on. i.e. there wasn't going to be 20 mins injury time so the 20 mins after the 90 before the match restarted not added on just the 8 or 9 from injury up to the 90 mins

 

[JohnMatrix]

Agreed, I thought Mount had a pretty poor game but it seems he is one of Southgates blue eyed ones.
This system that Southgate plays reminds me very much of another manager who shall be nameless, lots of sideways backwards kind of thing, what we have we hold but it doesnt always work, and can give the other Team confidence to push forward.

Completely agree he was poor, Southgate like the other manager who will remain nameless seems to have favourites who he cannot be subbed at any stage.

 

[ombyman]

Without meaning to.be glib, I loved the way Rice dealt with it last match - taking a drink from one of the cups thrown. I also loved Sterling's celebration. In my (middle class white male) perspective, best way of dealing is to take the **** and make them look a bit silly

Imagine if Rice had to quaranteen for 10 days for drinking from the cup! FIFA missed a trick there lol

 

[Tony]

Stones seems to recover very quickly lol! Football is all about theatre and mind games now.

 

[Adrian_Monk]

Issues at home, issues away... Whatever the players choose to do is sadly futile. If Abraham Lincoln, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Mikhail Gorbachev, Rosa Parks, Emily Pankhurst and Martin Luther King couldn't turn the tide of social inequality, I'm pretty sure Declan Rice ain't gonna do any better.

 

[Mardenboroughs Shoulder]

Omg when I saw Frankowski on the Polish bench I thought missing piece of the jigsaw Thomasz had come out of retirement!

 

[WickedWolfie]

Agreed, I thought Mount had a pretty poor game but it seems he is one of Southgates blue eyed ones.
This system that Southgate plays reminds me very much of another manager who shall be nameless, lots of sideways backwards kind of thing, what we have we hold but it doesnt always work, and can give the other Team confidence to push forward.

So, you managed to somehow, despite the match tonight being absolutely nothing to do with him, to find yet another opportunity to slag off our most successful manager for 40+ years huh....

Completely agree he was poor, Southgate like the other manager who will remain nameless seems to have favourites who he cannot be subbed at any stage.

.... and another one....

 

[WickedWolfie]

Omg when I saw Frankowski on the Polish bench I thought missing piece of the jigsaw Thomasz had come out of retirement!

If he had he'd doubtless have scored....

 

[VictorPyrrhic]

I thought England played quite well last night and on the balance of play just about deserved a victory. In years gone by it was the kind of match that England [or a English team playing in europe] would be losing 1-0 at HT.

I think Southgate has done a good job over the last few years and the talent we have coming through and strength in depth is very promising. We certainly look a top tier team. It's a shame we conceded late but these things happen.

People have commented on the lack of substitutions but i'm not sure what a change in personal would have achieved, we were in control of the match for most of the second half and the players didn't look tired [Kane aside who looked it all match].

Oh and @Mutchy New DDI Research: 57 Percent of Employees Quit Because of Their Boss

The majority of people in the work place have left a job due to their boss. No they shouldn't feel 'pushed' as you put it but it is a very real fact of the world that people action this option available to them for a variety of reasons and once i assume they have exhausted all avenues to improve the situation.

You did clearly state that the thread should be kept to options available to England tonight yet inappropriately jumped all over a legitimate factual course of action amongst others [as did wickedwolf and zico].

Expect better from a moderator of the forum.

 

[Mutchy]

I thought England played quite well last night and on the balance of play just about deserved a victory. In years gone by it was the kind of match that England [or a English team playing in europe] would be losing 1-0 at HT.

I think Southgate has done a good job over the last few years and the talent we have coming through and strength in depth is very promising. We certainly look a top tier team. It's a shame we conceded late but these things happen.

People have commented on the lack of substitutions but i'm not sure what a change in personal would have achieved, we were in control of the match for most of the second half and the players didn't look tired [Kane aside who looked it all match].

Oh and @Mutchy New DDI Research: 57 Percent of Employees Quit Because of Their Boss

The majority of people in the work place have left a job due to their boss. No they shouldn't feel 'pushed' as you put it but it is a very real fact of the world that people action this option available to them for a variety of reasons and once i assume they have exhausted all avenues to improve the situation.

You did clearly state that the thread should be kept to options available to England tonight yet inappropriately jumped all over a legitimate factual course of action amongst others [as did wickedwolf and zico].

Expect better from a moderator of the forum.

If my comment that leaving the football profession is not something that someone suffering as a target of racism should ever feel the need to consider is somehow wrong in your book, I am entirely happy and comfortable with the fact that you might expect 'better' from me.

 

[GuzzWolf]

Mount should of been subbed along with Phillips. Sterling needs to be less selfish. Decent point but should of been 3.

I find Sterling really frustrating......me...me....me

 

[Zico]

If my comment that leaving the football profession is not something that someone suffering as a target of racism should ever feel the need to consider is somehow wrong in your book, I am entirely happy and comfortable with the fact that you might expect 'better' from me.

Me too. Clearly he has not understood the points raised, which were done politely and not at all "jumping all over". However, anything further would I'm sure have to be on the current affairs forum, which I would spent far too much time on if I went there!

 

[Zico]

Issues at home, issues away... Whatever the players choose to do is sadly futile. If Abraham Lincoln, Nelson Mandela, Gandhi, Mikhail Gorbachev, Rosa Parks, Emily Pankhurst and Martin Luther King couldn't turn the tide of social inequality, I'm pretty sure Declan Rice ain't gonna do any better.

Well I wouldn't like to compare Declan Rice with those, and I'm sure he wouldn't either - but actually those people did all turn the tide, didn't they? Of course things aren't perfect now, but they're remembered for a reason.

 

[VictorPyrrhic]

If my comment that leaving the football profession is not something that someone suffering as a target of racism should ever feel the need to consider is somehow wrong in your book, I am entirely happy and comfortable with the fact that you might expect 'better' from me.

I wrote several paragraphs over 2 or 3 posts but you CHOSE to highlight one aspect. Players shouldn't feel they have to take legal action but you didn't raise that or acknowledge it.

Don't specify that you wish for the thread to lay out available options to players if you are going to take umbrage with a a given course of action particularily when the majority of the population at some point in their careers have taken that option [rightly or wrongly].

i think you've been quite myopic and idealistic and it's unfair to attribute your comment ['...feel pushed'] to a single selective statement of my balanced and considered post/s and therefore indirectly implying that i encourage players to change profession or in the case of Zico a direct accusation.

Your strongly held view and contentment with those views [rightly] is independent to attaching it to another post out of context and that is why i think as a moderator you could have engaged better. It would have taken you less than 10 seconds to prefix your reply with 'i'm not implying that you advise that course of action but....'no player should feel pushed'....

 

[VictorPyrrhic]

Me too. Clearly he has not understood the points raised, which were done politely and not at all "jumping all over". However, anything further would I'm sure have to be on the current affairs forum, which I would spent far too much time on if I went there!

I've come to the conclusion that you are just attempting to course controversy. I haven't read a single paragraph of substance from you on this thread yet which is the hallmark of a Wum/Troll.

 

[Mutchy]

I wrote several paragraphs over 2 or 3 posts but you CHOSE to highlight one aspect. Players shouldn't feel they have to take legal action but you didn't raise that or acknowledge it.

Don't specify that you wish for the thread to lay out available options to players if you are going to take umbrage with a a given course of action particularily when the majority of the population at some point in their careers have taken that option [rightly or wrongly].

i think you've been quite myopic and idealistic and it's unfair to attribute your comment ['...feel pushed'] to a single selective statement of my balanced and considered post/s and therefore indirectly implying that i encourage players to change profession or in the case of Zico a direct accusation.

Your strongly held view and contentment with those views [rightly] is independent to attaching it to another post out of context and that is why i think as a moderator you could have engaged better. It would have taken you less than 10 seconds to prefix your reply with 'i'm not implying that you advise that course of action but....'no player should feel pushed'....

I suppose what happens in any work place then. Report it to those responsible for enforcing certain legislation/punishment and continue to do their job to the best of their ability or find an alternate employer/profession.

I feel i'm best leaving it there now. In future i won't be commenting on sensitive issues as it is clear that people cannot separate factual options available to an individual from in this case my personal view which i did clearly state should be players collectively taking action against Uefa/Fifa.

Highlighted again.

 

[Zico]

I suppose what happens in any work place then. Report it to those responsible for enforcing certain legislation/punishment and continue to do their job to the best of their ability or find an alternate employer/profession.

This was in direct response to "keep this thread to what the England players should do." No amount of long winded passive aggressiveness can weasel out of that.

 

[VictorPyrrhic]

Without ranking or undermining any form of discrimation, we're all discrimated against in some form [appearance, CV, wealth, status, age, health, gender, nationality...] i experience indirect or direct prejudice on a weekly basis but i understand that the human brain is programmed to take the path of least resistance, compartmentalise and so forth and only those that engage in critical thinking which is often developed through academia can address our congitive predispositions. It takes processing effort.

Therefore, i'd very much disagree [he's entitled to his opinion] that insults are worse than physical threats/harm although by no means is that undermining the impact of insults and prejudice. Authorities hold an important position but until these issues are addressed by peers they will continue to exist.

For example: there is a theory that hooliganism in the 70's/80's on the terraces was due to the lack of male elders keeping the younger generation in check. There is really a lot to be said for 'household values' and i also don't think we should automatically castigate the perpetrator.

Life and people are difficult for many to understand and we've created a system whereby intellect is rewarded whilst self-preservation dictates that those of lesser intellect/opportunity should be constrained/reduced to a given existence. Therefore, is it really unexpected that these prejudices surface when they are outbursts for other underlining socio-economic issues?

Football will always find it diffcult to get a grip because in some ways it is not reprensentative of society. It is or at least was traditionally, a release from the working week including saturday morning for the working class. Why is it deemed tolerable to abuse the referee for example?

This needs to stay on how the England team should deal with any racist abuse this evening...

I suppose what happens in any work place then. Report it to those responsible for enforcing certain legislation/punishment and continue to do their job to the best of their ability or find an alternate employer/profession.

I wouldn't advise they drink from the bottles thrown as they cannot be certain what the bottle contains, neither should they confront them or provoke them. Their only other choice is to refuse to do their job and play but then they potentially punish other fans aswell as themselves.

I was the first to reply to this thread and therefore your reply requesting it stays 'on topic' by implication can only have been to my inital post and therefore i addressed your post directly.

You take your car into a garage and later find out that they ripped you off by a £1000 [livelihood] and perfomed the repair incompetently [risk to life]. You decide if impact is more or less severe than discrimination/xenophobia/racism/prejudice...

For all the options below you can choose to drive the car or not.

1. Do nothing
2. Protest outside of the garage/ on social media platforms...
3. Complain to the garage
4. Complain to industry bodies/ trading standards
5. Take legal action

Furthermore, you can choose to return to the garage in the future or not. For many people another garage may be several miles away but it doesn't change the fact they may feel they have little choice but change garage regardless of the injustice/inconvenience.

Some may wish to continue to drive the car but it doesn't change the fact the car is not roadworthy and/or they may have little prospect of receiving compensation/reimbursement [perhaps industry body is incompenent and they do not have the required funds to pursue legal action]

At no point in those statements above have i expressed an advisable course of action.

Zico made a accusation and @Mutchy i've expressed above. Get it yet?

 

[VictorPyrrhic]

This was in direct response to "keep this thread to what the England players should do." No amount of long winded passive aggressiveness can weasel out of that.

You made a direct accusation according to your 'poorly worded' metric. You've yet to justify that accusation!

 

[Zico]

You made a direct accusation according to your 'poorly worded' metric. You've yet to justify that accusation!

No, I said that I hoped you didn't mean that, but that your post read that way. As it clearly did to others. You don't see that, okay. We are not going to get any further with this.

 

[Mutchy]

I was the first to reply to this thread and therefore your reply requesting it stays 'on topic' by implication can only have been to my inital post and therefore i addressed your post directly.

You take your car into a garage and later find out that they ripped you off by a £1000 [livelihood] and perfomed the repair incompetently [risk to life]. You decide if impact is more or less severe than discrimination/xenophobia/racism/prejudice...

For all the options below you can choose to drive the car or not.

1. Do nothing
2. Protest outside of the garage/ on social media platforms...
3. Complain to the garage
4. Complain to industry bodies/ trading standards
5. Take legal action

Furthermore, you can choose to return to the garage in the future or not. For many people another garage may be several miles away but it doesn't change the fact they may feel they have little choice but change garage regardless of the injustice/inconvenience.

Some may wish to continue to drive the car but it doesn't change the fact the car is not roadworthy and/or they may have little prospect of receiving compensation/reimbursement [perhaps industry body is incompenent and they do not have the required funds to pursue legal action]

At no point in those statements above have i expressed an advisable course of action.

Zico made a accusation and @Mutchy i've expressed above. Get it yet?

 

[VictorPyrrhic]

No, I said that I hoped you didn't mean that, but that your post read that way. As it clearly did to others. You don't see that, okay. We are not going to get any further with this.

-Prefixing your accusation with 'hope' is still an accusation.
-'Poorly worded' is subjective and an unmeasurable metric
- Justifying your perspective beacuse another or several others share the same perspective is poor form. Mass behaviour may be a good indicator some of the time but there are thousands of examples throughout history to disprove this including psychological studies so you're on risky ground if you believe you can validate your opinions through the agreement of others.

As i said, you wished to stir up controversy [including attaching yourself to relative authority on here [Mutchy and with all the information you have been provided with since you still seek to maintain that position. That is your choice but i'm going to call you out for it.

I'm done on this now.

 

[Zico]

-Prefixing your accusation with 'hope' is still an accusation.
-'Poorly worded' is subjective and an unmeasurable metric
- Justifying your perspective beacuse another or several others share the same perspective is poor form. Mass behaviour may be a good indicator some of the time but there are thousands of examples throughout history to disprove this including psychological studies so you're on risky ground if you believe you can validate your opinions through the agreement of others.

As i said, you wished to stir up controversy [including attaching yourself to relative authority on here [Mutchy and with all the information you have been provided with since you still seek to maintain that position. That is your choice but i'm going to call you out for it.

I'm done on this now.

Extraordinary.

All you had to do to start with was to say, "no I didn't mean it sound like that, I just meant that unfortunately that's what often happens." End of story. Instead you went on some very weird wild attack, your behaviour on this thread has been quite bizarre really.

Oh well. You're done, I'm done, I hope (in a very non-accusatory way) that we're all done. Onto Watford.

 

[VictorPyrrhic]

Extraordinary.

All you had to do to start with was to say, "no I didn't mean it sound like that, I just meant that unfortunately that's what often happens." End of story. Instead you went on some very weird wild attack, your behaviour on this thread has been quite bizarre really.

Oh well. You're done, I'm done, I hope (in a very non-accusatory way) that we're all done. Onto Watford.

This was your inital reply and most follow-up reply.

Are you really saying that if racism continues and footballers subjected to it don't like it, then they should find another job? I hope you're not, bit that's how it reads.

I think you're trying to stir up controversy here!

I'm comparing it to a work place, afterall that is what it essentially is. If your employer does not resolve institutional racism then your next course of action is to go beyond the employer and to industry bodies and failing that to take legal action.

For many people subjected to prejudice and discrimation, they do not have access to or the required funds to take legal action and they are not in a financial position to give up a salary whilst they await an outcome, leaving them little choice but to seek a new employer or even an industry.

I haven't once suggested 'if they don't like it' which is implying that i condone discrimination. I'm highlighting a very real fact of the world we live in [not some idealistic, fantasists view] that change is not easy to achieve, it can take a long time and at significant costs to a individuals welfare and therefore sometimes and for some people, it may be a decision they feel they have to make.

There have been plenty of young men over the past few decades that have felt they needed to leave football behind because they did not agree with the male oriented culture within a dressing room. Whether they exhausted all avenues to attain change i couldn't answer but the fact remains some people felt it was best they found a new occupation.

Ultimately, the responsibility is with clubs and Uefa/Fifa to ensure players ply their trade in a suitable environment. If they fail to address it adequately then players can only refuse to play, take legal action or find a new employer [governing body in this case that will address the issues] /new occupation.

The reality is that footballers in general do have the resources and access to a legal system, they have power and a public profile to instigate change and a collective/common understanding and therefore it is very unlikely a given indivudual will feel they have little choice but to seek a new occupation. They may feel they need to find a new employer however should their issues continue to not be addressed.

I'm struggling to understand how you have been pertubed by this!

I really want to draw a line under this now @Zico but you did purposely state 'am i suggesting if players don't like it...' with connotations that i was undermining racism/prejudice and therefore they should just accept it. I'm entitled to highlight that.

I could have just responded with as you say ' i didn't mean it like that' but in no way did i post in an undermining manner as you implied in your post and it would be false to claim that it isn't an option available to them as it is up and down the country across all workplaces which was the purpose of the post.

Therefore, i chose to reply to you comprehensively to attempt to expand on the reasoning and as i've said several times now, that is not my personal view only actionable solutions. In a complex world, for some people it would be best they find a new employer/industry for the sake of their well-being, practicalities, family, other commitments and so forth. It doesn't make it right but it is solution that is best for some people.

In the case of England players, if Fifa/Uefa listen they should protest to form a new governing body but the reality remains that is a long process with various challenges and for some players they may feel best served out of it.

Perhaps you didn't intend for your post to seem purposely controversial and undermining to the statements i posted but hopefully you can see why i would interpret it that way with the inclusion of your statement alluding to a put or shut up kind of mentality.

I wouldn't wish for any good human to be subjected to abuse regardless of their occupation but solutions available to them on an individual basis have to be realistic and within the context of the likelihood of achieveing a favourable outcome relative to the personal impact they face seeking change otherwise it's a pyrrhic victory and given change is required regardless, they may be choosing the best of a bad bunch of options unfortunately.

I hope that's cleared things up and as you say, on to Watford.

 

[Mutchy]

I haven't said I'm done yet. How many times do I have to post after doing that?
(Oh god, I trolled....goes away to practice self moderation and restraint)

 

[VictorPyrrhic]

I haven't said I'm done yet. How many times do I have to post after doing that?
(Oh god, I trolled....goes away to practice self moderation and restraint)

Really! I didn't insult you, i explained my opinion and you disagreed. Can you not just leave it at that without petty remarks?

Yes you're right, it probably would have been best to leave it.

 

[WickedWolfie]

There are phrases about the last word which come to mind....

 

[SuperGran]

There are phrases about the last word which come to mind....

And not digging any further

 

[Zico]

This was your inital reply and most follow-up reply.




I really want to draw a line under this now @Zico but you did purposely state 'am i suggesting if players don't like it...' with connotations that i was undermining racism/prejudice and therefore they should just accept it. I'm entitled to highlight that.

I could have just responded with as you say ' i didn't mean it like that' but in no way did i post in an undermining manner as you implied in your post and it would be false to claim that it isn't an option available to them as it is up and down the country across all workplaces which was the purpose of the post.

Therefore, i chose to reply to you comprehensively to attempt to expand on the reasoning and as i've said several times now, that is not my personal view only actionable solutions. In a complex world, for some people it would be best they find a new employer/industry for the sake of their well-being, practicalities, family, other commitments and so forth. It doesn't make it right but it is solution that is best for some people.

In the case of England players, if Fifa/Uefa listen they should protest to form a new governing body but the reality remains that is a long process with various challenges and for some players they may feel best served out of it.

Perhaps you didn't intend for your post to seem purposely controversial and undermining to the statements i posted but hopefully you can see why i would interpret it that way with the inclusion of your statement alluding to a put or shut up kind of mentality.

I wouldn't wish for any good human to be subjected to abuse regardless of their occupation but solutions available to them on an individual basis have to be realistic and within the context of the likelihood of achieveing a favourable outcome relative to the personal impact they face seeking change otherwise it's a pyrrhic victory and given change is required regardless, they may be choosing the best of a bad bunch of options unfortunately.

I hope that's cleared things up and as you say, on to Watford.

I know I was done, but!...... (sorry Mutchy!)

It wasn't meant as an accusation, it was a genuine question as to whether you were saying that. It looked to me as if you were, and I was just giving you an opportunity to clarify.

I think you kind of did clarify, but felt that got lost in a bit of a spat!

I accept what you say, and it's a very unfortunate state of affairs with no easy solution.

Hopefully we can now do the online equivalent of saying "anyway, whose round is it?"

(Done now.)

 

[bod101]

im done with this thread.

 

[bod101]

and im done.

 

[bod101]

no, im done

 

[bod101]

ok i really am done.

 

[bod101]

im definitely done.