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Poland v England

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Nige100

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Just been watching a fascinating debate between Fabrice Muamba and Marvin Bartley about racism in football. Obviously in advance of and setting the potential scene for tonight’s game in Poland.

Marvin absolutely says players walk off. I agree. Fabrice seems to think that playing behind closed doors and hitting associations and UEFA & FIFA in the pockets is a better way to drive it out of football. I disagree.

Marvin then came out with a shocking statement and really made me sit up and take notice. “I would rather be hit by a cup than be subjected to racial abuse” he said when talking about the missiles that were thrown onto the pitch in Hungary. Honestly this has really upset me that in 2021 a man would rather have things thrown at him than be called names. None of it should happen but blows the sticks and stones theory right out the water. Just goes to show what affect that this horrible element of certain society’s and cultures has on people.

I’m fully behind any team walking off the pitch and let’s hope this discussion doesn’t have the need to be resumed between 7pm - 10pm tonight during the England game. If it does my message is Harry lead your team off the pitch and if need be surrender the points if the FIFA cowards then won’t act.

Mods I would politely request you do not move this to the OT section as this is absolutely bang on topic and football related until we have driven this horrible disease out of our game and out of society in general.

What is it with people in certain society’s and there knuckle dragging ism’s it’s 2021 for ****s sake.

Rant over. Have a nice day all.
 

Mutchy

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Mods I would politely request you do not move this to the OT section as this is absolutely bang on topic and football related until we have driven this horrible disease out of our game and out of society in general.
Depends on how the thread progresses really. A general discussion about racism in society will be moved.
 

VictorPyrrhic

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Without ranking or undermining any form of discrimation, we're all discrimated against in some form [appearance, CV, wealth, status, age, health, gender, nationality...] i experience indirect or direct prejudice on a weekly basis but i understand that the human brain is programmed to take the path of least resistance, compartmentalise and so forth and only those that engage in critical thinking which is often developed through academia can address our congitive predispositions. It takes processing effort.

Therefore, i'd very much disagree [he's entitled to his opinion] that insults are worse than physical threats/harm although by no means is that undermining the impact of insults and prejudice. Authorities hold an important position but until these issues are addressed by peers they will continue to exist.

For example: there is a theory that hooliganism in the 70's/80's on the terraces was due to the lack of male elders keeping the younger generation in check. There is really a lot to be said for 'household values' and i also don't think we should automatically castigate the perpetrator.

Life and people are difficult for many to understand and we've created a system whereby intellect is rewarded whilst self-preservation dictates that those of lesser intellect/opportunity should be constrained/reduced to a given existence. Therefore, is it really unexpected that these prejudices surface when they are outbursts for other underlining socio-economic issues?

Football will always find it diffcult to get a grip because in some ways it is not reprensentative of society. It is or at least was traditionally, a release from the working week including saturday morning for the working class. Why is it deemed tolerable to abuse the referee for example?
 

Mutchy

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This needs to stay on how the England team should deal with any racist abuse this evening...
 

Hoganstolemywife

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This needs to stay on how the England team should deal with any racist abuse this evening...
Without meaning to.be glib, I loved the way Rice dealt with it last match - taking a drink from one of the cups thrown. I also loved Sterling's celebration. In my (middle class white male) perspective, best way of dealing is to take the **** and make them look a bit silly
 

VictorPyrrhic

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This needs to stay on how the England team should deal with any racist abuse this evening...
I suppose what happens in any work place then. Report it to those responsible for enforcing certain legislation/punishment and continue to do their job to the best of their ability or find an alternate employer/profession.

I wouldn't advise they drink from the bottles thrown as they cannot be certain what the bottle contains, neither should they confront them or provoke them. Their only other choice is to refuse to do their job and play but then they potentially punish other fans aswell as themselves.
 

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For me, I don't think walking off achieves anything (beyond awareness) as the perpetrators aren't impacted in anyway by this - I guess we're yet to see it in action and what impact it has on the offending nation.

Behind closed doors and fines don't seem to be successful, especially given the paltry size of them which is frankly laughable.

It might seem extreme and I understand this punishes the players and the good fans also, but I think full on expulsion (from competitions and qualifying) for the nation involved with the consistent racial abuse is the only way to go in the short term. I appreciate other avenues were worked too like travel bans etc, but it helped in a way with England being banned from tournaments due to hooligans. Naturally, this alone won't work, it needs to sit alongside wider education but that's drifting into topics Mutchy has already said we shouldn't talk about, so I'll stop there.

Clearly - if fines were suitable (FIFA/UEFA are responsible here) and the nations involved banned perpetrators appropriately then I'd hope the above (expulsion) wouldn't be needed but I suspect the short sharp shock approach is the only way to go first
 

Mutchy

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Naturally, this alone won't work, it needs to sit alongside wider education but that's drifting into topics Mutchy has already said we shouldn't talk about, so I'll stop there.
You're very welcome to discuss them, but in the politics/news/current affairs forum section rather than the football one.
 

Zico

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I suppose what happens in any work place then. Report it to those responsible for enforcing certain legislation/punishment and continue to do their job to the best of their ability or find an alternate employer/profession.

I wouldn't advise they drink from the bottles thrown as they cannot be certain what the bottle contains, neither should they confront them or provoke them. Their only other choice is to refuse to do their job and play but then they potentially punish other fans aswell as themselves.
Are you really saying that if racism continues and footballers subjected to it don't like it, then they should find another job? I hope you're not, bit that's how it reads.
 

giantwolf

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You're very welcome to discuss them, but in the politics/news/current affairs forum section rather than the football one.
Thanks, I get that but was hoping to keep it to this forum as per the OPs request, so wasn’t going to go any further
 

WeAreTheWolvesII

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I think they should walk off if there's genuine racist abuse. They shouldn't have to deal with it when playing football and it should make those doing it embarrassed and uncomfortable, forcing the hand of decision makers.

What I would say though, is that the media reports from last week seem to want to make different things racist. For instance, booing the knee, which I expect Poland to do, doesn't make them racist (in my opinion), nor did the Hungary fans throwing things at Sterling. We've thrown things at him in the past when he celebrated by us, it wasn't racism. We need to remember that footballers get stick so anything towards a black player isn't instantly racism.

Got to be honest, I switched off after England were a few goals up last week but I heard Sky say there were clear monkey chants after that to Sterling and Bellingham among others. If that happens tonight or whenever, then that's when you walk off IMO.
 

SuperGran

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I think they should walk off if there's genuine racist abuse. They shouldn't have to deal with it when playing football and it should make those doing it embarrassed and uncomfortable, forcing the hand of decision makers.
Completely agree
 

giantwolf

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You gotta walk, only way Fifa/Eufa will take notice.
To be fair, I hadn’t considered the impact on them (and consequently forcing their hand to take action) in my earlier post, so that’s a good shout.
 
D

Deleted member 8455jwf

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I think they should walk off if there's genuine racist abuse. They shouldn't have to deal with it when playing football and it should make those doing it embarrassed and uncomfortable, forcing the hand of decision makers.

What I would say though, is that the media reports from last week seem to want to make different things racist. For instance, booing the knee, which I expect Poland to do, doesn't make them racist (in my opinion), nor did the Hungary fans throwing things at Sterling. We've thrown things at him in the past when he celebrated by us, it wasn't racism. We need to remember that footballers get stick so anything towards a black player isn't instantly racism.

Got to be honest, I switched off after England were a few goals up last week but I heard Sky say there were clear monkey chants after that to Sterling and Bellingham among others. If that happens tonight or whenever, then that's when you walk off IMO.
The guys who threw the cups were the Carpathian Brigade. There is a 0% chance it wasn't racist

 

JonahWolf

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To be fair, I hadn’t considered the impact on them (and consequently forcing their hand to take action) in my earlier post, so that’s a good shout.
Quite. FIFA are money money money. Players walk off, people switch off, all their ‘global partners’ throw a fit and want refunds.
Remember when Bendtner got a bigger fine because he had an unauthorised brand on his pants waistband than the one that was levelled at a foreign FA after a racism incident?
The racism wasn’t hurting UEFA’s bottom line, but the sponsor exclusivity being breached was.

Sad that it has to come to that, but if it works, then go for it. The sad drawback is that it would be seen as a victory by the knuckle-draggers in the ground. Unless of course a ban from the competition ensued.
 

old wittonian

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Quite. FIFA are money money money. Players walk off, people switch off, all their ‘global partners’ throw a fit and want refunds.
Remember when Bendtner got a bigger fine because he had an unauthorised brand on his pants waistband than the one that was levelled at a foreign FA after a racism incident?
The racism wasn’t hurting UEFA’s bottom line, but the sponsor exclusivity being breached was.

Sad that it has to come to that, but if it works, then go for it. The sad drawback is that it would be seen as a victory by the knuckle-draggers in the ground. Unless of course a ban from the competition ensued.
Well said.
 

WickedWolfie

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For me, I don't think walking off achieves anything (beyond awareness) as the perpetrators aren't impacted in anyway by this - I guess we're yet to see it in action and what impact it has on the offending nation.

Behind closed doors and fines don't seem to be successful, especially given the paltry size of them which is frankly laughable.

It might seem extreme and I understand this punishes the players and the good fans also, but I think full on expulsion (from competitions and qualifying) for the nation involved with the consistent racial abuse is the only way to go in the short term. I appreciate other avenues were worked too like travel bans etc, but it helped in a way with England being banned from tournaments due to hooligans. Naturally, this alone won't work, it needs to sit alongside wider education but that's drifting into topics Mutchy has already said we shouldn't talk about, so I'll stop there.

Clearly - if fines were suitable (FIFA/UEFA are responsible here) and the nations involved banned perpetrators appropriately then I'd hope the above (expulsion) wouldn't be needed but I suspect the short sharp shock approach is the only way to go first
A very thoughtful contribution, TY.
 

WickedWolfie

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Are you really saying that if racism continues and footballers subjected to it don't like it, then they should find another job? I hope you're not, bit that's how it reads.
Indeed. At best it's trite and blasé. It is also horribly inconsistent with the current drive to improve mental health in sports people by almost implying that it is their problem.
 

VictorPyrrhic

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Are you really saying that if racism continues and footballers subjected to it don't like it, then they should find another job? I hope you're not, bit that's how it reads.
I think you're trying to stir up controversy here!

I'm comparing it to a work place, afterall that is what it essentially is. If your employer does not resolve institutional racism then your next course of action is to go beyond the employer and to industry bodies and failing that to take legal action.

For many people subjected to prejudice and discrimation, they do not have access to or the required funds to take legal action and they are not in a financial position to give up a salary whilst they await an outcome, leaving them little choice but to seek a new employer or even an industry.

I haven't once suggested 'if they don't like it' which is implying that i condone discrimination. I'm highlighting a very real fact of the world we live in [not some idealistic, fantasists view] that change is not easy to achieve, it can take a long time and at significant costs to a individuals welfare and therefore sometimes and for some people, it may be a decision they feel they have to make.

There have been plenty of young men over the past few decades that have felt they needed to leave football behind because they did not agree with the male oriented culture within a dressing room. Whether they exhausted all avenues to attain change i couldn't answer but the fact remains some people felt it was best they found a new occupation.

Ultimately, the responsibility is with clubs and Uefa/Fifa to ensure players ply their trade in a suitable environment. If they fail to address it adequately then players can only refuse to play, take legal action or find a new employer [governing body in this case that will address the issues] /new occupation.

The reality is that footballers in general do have the resources and access to a legal system, they have power and a public profile to instigate change and a collective/common understanding and therefore it is very unlikely a given indivudual will feel they have little choice but to seek a new occupation. They may feel they need to find a new employer however should their issues continue to not be addressed.

I'm struggling to understand how you have been pertubed by this!
 

VictorPyrrhic

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Well it wasn't just me who read it like that, I have no interest in stirring up controversy. I think your initial post was worded poorly, that's not my fault.
You're entitled to your opinion but i disagree. Ultimately, England players tonight only have a limited set of responses they can action and meaningful [unlike drinking from a bottle] and potentially impactful methods available to them do fall under methods available to people in all walks of life up and down the country across various employers and industries.

If you choose to ignore that fact or attempt to selectively highlight material then i can only suggest you propose an alternate perspective or practical solutions. Whether you like to admit it or not some people including footballers do feel they have to leave an occupation and it is a fact to state that it is an option available to them amongst other options.

It's quite clear that Uefa/Fifa do very little to address the problem so i'd hope that players can collectively instigate change and hold Uefa/Fifa to account but some players will feel they would be better served choosing other options available to them for whatever reason.

I'll leave it there now, thank you very much!.
 

CelebrityWolf

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Walking off is never going to solve these issues unfortunately, if it did then you wouldn't see it happen every international break. Until these federations make a proper stand it is all pointless. Hungary know what that ultra group are all about but yet they allow them into the ground game after game.
 

MasWolf

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Just been watching a fascinating debate between Fabrice Muamba and Marvin Bartley about racism in football. Obviously in advance of and setting the potential scene for tonight’s game in Poland.

Marvin absolutely says players walk off. I agree. Fabrice seems to think that playing behind closed doors and hitting associations and UEFA & FIFA in the pockets is a better way to drive it out of football. I disagree.

Marvin then came out with a shocking statement and really made me sit up and take notice. “I would rather be hit by a cup than be subjected to racial abuse” he said when talking about the missiles that were thrown onto the pitch in Hungary. Honestly this has really upset me that in 2021 a man would rather have things thrown at him than be called names. None of it should happen but blows the sticks and stones theory right out the water. Just goes to show what affect that this horrible element of certain society’s and cultures has on people.

I’m fully behind any team walking off the pitch and let’s hope this discussion doesn’t have the need to be resumed between 7pm - 10pm tonight during the England game. If it does my message is Harry lead your team off the pitch and if need be surrender the points if the FIFA cowards then won’t act.

Mods I would politely request you do not move this to the OT section as this is absolutely bang on topic and football related until we have driven this horrible disease out of our game and out of society in general.

What is it with people in certain society’s and there knuckle dragging ism’s it’s 2021 for ****s sake.

Rant over. Have a nice day all.
I'm so surprised that we haven't had any players walk off in this country like they have on the continent and to be honest, they're much better than me for doing so. I think if I was in that position I would either walk off or go into the crowd and start scrapping if the abuse was from supporters who were visible to me, even though I know it's wrong to do so.
 

marrs-guitar

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Nothing will dramatically change until the real superstars of the game start kicking off and threatening to boycott competitions.

They are pretty much the only ones who are actually more powerful than FIFA or UEFA. You would probably need a coordinated group though of the world's top stars to collectively take action though and I don't think that's forthcoming.

For every sponsor that takes its money out of football, they'll be another waiting to take its place. The sportswashing trend already means that the money in the game is increasingly coming from countries (and companies based there) where racism and other forms of discrimination are widely ignored or even actively encouraged.

A World Cup in Qatar was just the start and now Saudi Arabia is petitioning FIFA to hold a World Cup every two years and has already got a World Club Cup organised.
 

Contrarian

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Therefore, i'd very much disagree [he's entitled to his opinion] that insults are worse than physical threats/harm although by no means is that undermining the impact of insults and prejudice. Authorities hold an important position but until these issues are addressed by peers they will continue to exist.

Yet there are those who say they are terrified to say "anything" for fear of being accused racist/sexist/whatever-ist. The same message must surely apply to them? "It's not as bad as a physical threat". Nor is it as bad as being the victim of genuine racism.
 

Mutchy

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Whether you like to admit it or not some people including footballers do feel they have to leave an occupation and it is a fact to state that it is an option available to them amongst other options.
It also shouldn't be something that anyone feels pushed into having to consider due to racism.
 

Direwolf

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I would rather a Team did not walk off the pitch. My fear is that it gives governing bodies opportunities to punish the abused rather than the abusers.
 

Monketron

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Walking off is never going to solve these issues unfortunately, if it did then you wouldn't see it happen every international break. Until these federations make a proper stand it is all pointless. Hungary know what that ultra group are all about but yet they allow them into the ground game after game.

I think the walking off would be more aimed at pushing FIFA to act, than about trying to get fans to change their actions. FIFA have shown they will do absolutely nothing to combat the issue unless forced.
 

grumpy old wolf

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Initially I liked the idea of walking off ,on reflection if it lead to the offending team being banned great , unless a losing side cries foul and claims a racist remark was made to stop the game . I think it would be near impossible to tell in some instances .
Maybe in overt situations like in Hungary refs are instructed to lead players off , they are supposed to be the arbitors of fair play.
 

Axle

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Poland in general is a very tolerant, open country and l’ve been there with friends of all colours and never experienced anything negative at all.

The political climate is not great due the ruling Law and Justice party and there are plenty of conservative people in rural areas, but, like many racists, they are a loud, brutish minority who make the rest of the fans / nation look bad.

I hope football is what we are discussing tonight. I honestly don’t believe that this pre-emotion of bad behaviour is useful either as it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. It’s not like we’ve got the cleanest of history when it comes to things like this either, which l think is a double edged sword as lots of Eastern European extremists always fancy a bit of a run-in with the ‘mother of football’
 

VictorPyrrhic

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It also shouldn't be something that anyone feels pushed into having to consider due to racism.
And not once did i suggest that either but 'pushed' can also imply 'has little alternative'. I feel i'm best leaving it there now. In future i won't be commenting on sensitive issues as it is clear that people cannot separate factual options available to an individual from in this case my personal view which i did clearly state should be players collectively taking action against Uefa/Fifa.
 

old wittonian

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I think the walking off would be more aimed at pushing FIFA to act, than about trying to get fans to change their actions. FIFA have shown they will do absolutely nothing to combat the issue unless forced.
Couldn't agree more about the ruling bodies. Remember our game in East Europe in the Europa Cup where it should have been played behind closed doors. They let in school children and parents. No punishment at all.
 

The Clock

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No place for racism in football. Or anywhere else.
Of course players should not be abused because of their race. Most players are abused at times for performance issues.
But the walk off thing by England tonight or any other night would have a large whiff of hypocrisy.
Its an hypocrisy that I am guilty of myself.
More than 6,500 workers have died in Qatar since it was awarded the 2022 World Cup.


Largely from India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka.
They are not black, but they do matter.
Everyone, including England players should reflect on this.
If they want to make a profound statement they should boycott tonight's game for the reason that all lives matter.
Of course the irony is that I have the same dilemma.
I've been to every world cup since 2002.
I have provisional accommodation booked to enable me to go to Qatar.
Does that make me a hypocrite. Yes it does.
I wrestle with it. I'm still not sure what to do. If it was tomorrow I would go. If I was selected tonight I would play.
If I was a player I would like to think I would highlight this issue, but I understand that there will be pressure to say nothing.
Of course, its easy for me to say because I'm not getting the abuse.
 
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Axle

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No place for racism in football. Or anywhere else.
Of course players should not be abused because of their race. Most players are abused at times for performance issues.
But the walk off thing by England tonight or any other night would have a large whiff of hypocrisy.
Its an hypocrisy that I am guilty of myself.
More than 6,500 construction workers have died building new stadiums for the Qatar world cup.


Largely from India, Bangladesh, Nepal and Sri Lanka.
They are not black, but they do matter.
Everyone, including England players should reflect on this.
If they want to make a profound statement they should boycott tonight's game for the reason that all lives matter.
Of course the irony is that I have the same dilemma.
I've been to every world cup since 2002.
I have provisional accommodation booked to enable me to go to Qatar.
Does that make me a hypocrite. Yes it does.
I wrestle with it. I'm still not sure what to do. If it was tomorrow I would go. If I was selected tonight I would play.
If I was a player I would like to think I would highlight this issue, but I understand that there will be pressure to say nothing.
Of course, its easy for me to say because I'm not getting the abuse.
I think if we had anything about us as a species we would all boycott the WC in Qatar given the human cost involved.

I know I said I wouldn't watch it when it was first awarded, but you just get worn down by time.

It's about the worst host for a WC that there ever could be.

The idea of having a WC every two years to satiate these nations is sad, pathetic and highly likely to happen.
 

WickedWolfie

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I think if we had anything about us as a species we would all boycott the WC in Qatar given the human cost involved.

I know I said I wouldn't watch it when it was first awarded, but you just get worn down by time.

It's about the worst host for a WC that there ever could be.

The idea of having a WC every two years to satiate these nations is sad, pathetic and highly likely to happen.
One reason and one reason only..... ££££££££££
 

sc91

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It's not pleasant at all, but England has issues at home as Southgate rightfully said before we preach the holy.
 
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