Podence and Neto - the key to our success ( or failure)

[wwbug]

These two guys have to be scoring goals. They are absolutely crucial to our ability to win matches.
They can score goals and like Jota they have to be brought in to dangerous areas.
Nuno has to work out how to get these men in to the box, close to Jimenez and very near the goal. Thats all - because everything else is good. .

 

[wwbug]

And tonight Neto was in the box and scoring for Portugal .
Like Jota if he plays more centrally he will score more goals

 

[whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury]

would suggest if pedro plays nearer to jimi then adama would have to do the providing.not sure with wing backs where that leaves podence

 

[MasWolf]

We tend to use them to supply service to Raul, but play them more centrally, and even change formation to two up top, then they'll start scoring more.

 

[CelebrityWolf]

Completely disagree. The key to our future success is whether Nuno can adapt and have us become more of a threat going forward.

 

[manchesterwolf17]

I'd like to see Podence just off Jimenez, with Neto and Traore on the wings.

For me that would see us as far more of a creative threat.

I realise this would require certain tweaks in formation, but this isn't something that should just be dismissed for convenience.

We lack goals.. So have at least 3 creative players providing for a striker who will inevitably thrive upon such support. Right now, we're solving nothing by playing as we are. For how organised we look in defence, the opposite can be applied for how toothless we look at the other end of the field.

The Crystal Palace game showed what we can do when we actually do go for it. But really, the Newcastle fixture beforehand has been the blueprint for how we've been this season so far, and it's very frustrating to see us bypass such opportunities because we do have the capabilities and personnel to be an attacking force.

Villa have scored 10 goals against Liverpool and Arsenal in 2 matches. We've managed 8 all season. And yet other than Grealish, I wouldn't swap any of their attacking players for one of ours. It's all about mindset, and having a belief and confidence to go out and express yourselves, because really, other than Liverpool, Man City and maybe Chelsea, there isn't anybody to be scared of in this league, and it's becoming more evident every week.

 

[Flea]

I think the main key is having our wingbacks attacking the opposition and to have Ruben Neves in a more advanced playing position than where he normally plays.
Keys is our wingbacks though..when they sit back we run out of options in attack,and it will not matter where Neves plays in this scenario.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Podence is often alongside Jimenez in this new formation , and with a bit of luck could have had 3-4 more goals this season with his narrow misses , last ditch tackle.

The goals will come , but some more clear cut chances would be nice.

When the full backs are marked out the game and the opponent has 1 up top, that’s the time to take Coady or kilman off and bring Traoré vitinha Or Silva on and have 4 of them up there

nuno has spotted everything else wrong with the team over the last three years except this . It will come in the next few months IMO

 

[gullykular]

I think the below highlights it nicely. It shows our Top 5 players for average key passes per game (passes that lead to a shot at goal)



As you can see, Neto is far and away our most creative player in this sense, but even his being below 2 isn't great. The rest have to pick up the baton but even Neves, Moutinho and Dendoncker aren't there for the 'final pass'. Note also that the wing-backs don't feature in this list. We aren't a team who successfully get the ball wide and cross.

 

[WeAreTheWolvesII]

I agree with this and in this system, I think these two are our biggest problems.

As we all know, our issue is scoring goals, in terms of trying to break the top six.

Each one of those teams above us has goals from various players.

Everyone knows the players at Liverpool, City, United, Chelsea, Spurs who score outside the main striker but Leicester have it as well. They had four players getting 5+ last season, we had one and he’s gone.

Their attacking three equivalent to our attacking three; Maddison, Barnes, Perez got 20 goals between them. Their Silva equivalent; Iheanacho got five.

We aren’t going to get close to that in my opinion.

So whilst I think Neto is good and Podence is good, it’s not enough. Traore gets more slack as he hasn’t played but he could easily be in this conversation as well.

This system relies on goals from those players and they’re just not coming. And, in truth can anyone see that changing? I can’t see those two or Traore getting near 20 this season and that’s just to compete with the side who will be the lowest scorers in the top six.

Admittedly with our defensive record we may not need it to be as good as the rest but it’s actually some way off.

Would a change in system help on this front? Probably but we don’t know the cost.

We can almost say for sure though that a lack of goals will cost us the top six.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

I agree with this and in this system, I think these two are our biggest problems.

As we all know, our issue is scoring goals, in terms of trying to break the top six.

Each one of those teams above us has goals from various players.

Everyone knows the players at Liverpool, City, United, Chelsea, Spurs who score outside the main striker but Leicester have it as well. They had four players getting 5+ last season, we had one and he’s gone.

Their attacking three equivalent to our attacking three; Maddison, Barnes, Perez got 20 goals between them. Their Silva equivalent; Iheanacho got five.

We aren’t going to get close to that in my opinion.

So whilst I think Neto is good and Podence is good, it’s not enough. Traore gets more slack as he hasn’t played but he could easily be in this conversation as well.

This system relies on goals from those players and they’re just not coming. And, in truth can anyone see that changing? I can’t see those two or Traore getting near 20 this season and that’s just to compete with the side who will be the lowest scorers in the top six.

Admittedly with our defensive record we may not need it to be as good as the rest but it’s actually some way off.

Would a change in system help on this front? Probably but we don’t know the cost.

We can almost say for sure though that a lack of goals will cost us the top six.

Good post with your penultimate sentence being key.

Fine line between scoring goals like Leeds / villa and shipping 7 goals in two games

Dendoncker should have had 2 in his last two games . Can’t fault him too much for palace tho as he was superb. These are the chances that need to be ruthlessly finished.

chance creation is the key though. I guess the only thing to say is we have two new full backs who won’t fully know the system yet and once they are up to speed their should be more opportunities .

Right now though we arE just seeing Chances created by Neto and podence generally . We need to work out a way to get podence in possession in the final third as he is class .

 

[goldeneyed]

They both need to dovetail better with Jiminez who too often looks isolated and fighting a lone battle with three or four defenders around him. Hence his current frustration and loss of form imv. The fact that apart from Dendoncker we have no central midfielder capable of coming up in support just behind Jiminez is even more of an issue. And now Dendoncker is injured (hopefully not seriously).

 

[JOSWolf]

They both need to dovetail better with Jiminez who too often looks isolated and fighting a lone battle with three or four defenders around him. Hence his current frustration and loss of form imv. The fact that apart from Dendoncker we have no central midfielder capable of coming up in support just behind Jiminez is even more of an issue. And now Dendoncker is injured (hopefully not seriously).

I think in Vitinha we may potentially have a player to attack from central midfield. Trouble is I think Nuno would have to tweak the formation to accommodate him and potentially drop one of Neto or Podence. Dont think Vitinha could play in a central midfield two at present.

 

[WonderWolf]

As it is currently Nuno is absolutely relying on Neto and Pod to deliver the missing critical input.

The problem is that whereas Jota was a much more natural finisher and provided the ‘unexpected’ to deliver, this pair are going to have to develop a finish along with the creative impact they can potentially deliver…...so far Jimenez is all alone and still having to be here, there, and everywhere in trying to give us actual teeth – not good for our desperately required forceful bite!!

We are relying on the industrious Donk to finish with a finish but he is not currently up to the dangerous level of Dave with that, sadly.

It could well be that the next window will offer us an opportunity to re-evaluate and adjust.

 

[wwbug]

The simple fact is someone has to get in to the box. Goals are not scored from the wing.
So who is it to be ? For me it has to be natural goal scorers not natural defenders.

 

[Deleted member 11157]

Whoever is in there we have to move the ball quicker and get in goal with fewer passes. Think the main tactic revolves aroung keeping more possession in their half and the same time holding a line in front of the defence. No alarms from me. It is something that will take time to develop but we are seeing the green shoots of something that will eventually put us top four. No gain without the pain. The dilemma for me has always been including Donk or Moutinho as I would find it almost impossible to leave Ruben out.

 

[gullykular]

The simple fact is someone has to get in to the box. Goals are not scored from the wing.
So who is it to be ? For me it has to be natural goal scorers not natural defenders.

I don’t think getting it wide and crossing is really part of the plan, hence why we don’t commit too many to the box. Besides, the amount of crosses that amount to nothing in football at the top level in general is huge. Think there’s an obsession with crossing from the days of David Beckham, but few people will ever have that ability to cross the ball

 

[Deleted member 11332]

I don’t think getting it wide and crossing is really part of the plan, hence why we don’t commit too many to the box. Besides, the amount of crosses that amount to nothing in football at the top level in general is huge. Think there’s an obsession with crossing from the days of David Beckham, but few people will ever have that ability to cross the ball

Did read an article that goals from cut backs were massively up this season, that's generally how we try to get the ball in the box, think once it all clicks we will start to see more goals from that.

 

[gullykular]

Did read an article that goals from cut backs were massively up this season, that's generally how we try to get the ball in the box, think once it all clicks we will start to see more goals from that.

Cut backs as opposed to the whipped aerial crosses we’ve been putting in. But that would mean getting in behind the defence which is where the idea that we progress the ball through the middle of the pitch being the priority comes from

 

[Deleted member 11332]

Cut backs as opposed to the whipped aerial crosses we’ve been putting in. But that would mean getting in behind the defence which is where the idea that we progress the ball through the middle of the pitch being the priority comes from

Think that's the idea with the inside forwards and our wingbacks overlapping trying to get them fed in behind. It hasn't worked yet but thats the idea.

 

[wwbug]

Cut back would be better than crosses from the wide areas, as we dont have the height for crosses. and they can be cut out on the ground
Who cuts back and who receives ? If our wing backs are are the ones cutting back they are going to be well up the field .

 

[gullykular]

Think that's the idea with the inside forwards and our wingbacks overlapping trying to get them fed in behind. It hasn't worked yet but thats the idea.

Have to draw defences out in the way Leicester did to us. Won two penalties in those kind of channels but you need attacking intent and bravery in possession to make that happen

 

[Deleted member 11332]

Cut back would be better than crosses from the wide areas, as we dont have the height for crosses. and they can be cut out on the ground
Who cuts back and who receives ? If our wing backs are are the ones cutting back they are going to be well up the field .

That's why we are looking to retain the ball more so we can get them in those advanced positions. Then we should have 5 in and around the box. 3 forwards, donck and other wingback. We've done it at times, palace for example. Just need to see more of it.

 

[gullykular]

That's why we are looking to retain the ball more so we can get them in those advanced positions. Then we should have 5 in and around the box. 3 forwards, donck and other wingback. We've done it at times, palace for example. Just need to see more of it.

Yeah we have and I’ve got no qualms with us goinf 2-0 up and sitting back, but we’re doing it in reverse at the moment

 

[Deleted member 11332]

Yeah we have and I’ve got no qualms with us goinf 2-0 up and sitting back, but we’re doing it in reverse at the moment

We sit back when we don't have the ball regardless of score, we don't press high we generally aggressively press when the ball hits full backs or operate a half pitch press. I don't think that will ever change under Nuno and why should it we concede very few goals.

The issue is when we get it we've been wasteful, teams are allowing boly to have the ball knowing he won't hurt them and staying nice and wide to cut out our long diagonals. This should leave the centre of the pitch which you identified earlier on, generally our execution when passing into the pockets behind the midfield has been either poor or we haven't been brave enough on that ball (another thing you have also said.)

It's failings on the ball that have been the issue, not sitting deep or being deliberately negative in style.

 

[gullykular]

We sit back when we don't have the ball regardless of score, we don't press high we generally aggressively press when the ball hits full backs or operate a half pitch press. I don't think that will ever change under Nuno and why should it we concede very few goals.

The issue is when we get it we've been wasteful, teams are allowing boly to have the ball knowing he won't hurt them and staying nice and wide to cut out our long diagonals. This should leave the centre of the pitch which you identified earlier on, generally our execution when passing into the pockets behind the midfield has been either poor or we haven't been brave enough on that ball (another thing you have also said.)

It's failings on the ball that have been the issue, not sitting deep or being deliberately negative in style.

Do you not think we’ve played with more intent in certain games as opposed to others? All Leicester did was press Coady and the WBs and we seemed incapable of getting out with the ball. That combined with a rather defensive mjndset seemed to undo us.

i agree with all the points you’ve made but I think there are distinct differences from game to game, if you look at Fulham, after our defeat to West Ham and Palace as a response to Newcastle.

 

[Deleted member 11332]

Do you not think we’ve played with more intent in certain games as opposed to others? All Leicester did was press Coady and the WBs and we seemed incapable of getting out with the ball. That combined with a rather defensive mjndset seemed to undo us.

i agree with all the points you’ve made but I think there are distinct differences from game to game, if you look at Fulham, after our defeat to West Ham and Palace as a response to Newcastle.

I don't think it's mindset. You nailed it re Leicester. That's all you need to do ATM and it stops us playing completely. Palace gave us freedom down the wings and packed the centre of the pitch and we mauled them. Teams that play 5 at the back give us problems because of that. West ham, Leicester, Chelsea last year at home.

Fulham was a bit of an outlier here but if we finish our chances that probably finishes 2/3-1 as they missed a sitter aswell.

 

[gullykular]

I don't think it's mindset. You nailed it re Leicester. That's all you need to do ATM and it stops us playing completely. Palace gave us freedom down the wings and packed the centre of the pitch and we mauled them. Teams that play 5 at the back give us problems because of that. West ham, Leicester, Chelsea last year at home.

Fulham was a bit of an outlier here but if we finish our chances that probably finishes 2/3-1 as they missed a sitter aswell.

From Nuno’s perspective though, teams just copying our shape feels like way to simplistic a method for us to become undone. Has to be more sophistication about our build up. I’d suggest passing out from the keeper as well, as a way in which we can work the ball into Coady and playing from there.

 

[WolfInSheep'sClothing]

I agree with this and in this system, I think these two are our biggest problems.

As we all know, our issue is scoring goals, in terms of trying to break the top six.

Each one of those teams above us has goals from various players.

Everyone knows the players at Liverpool, City, United, Chelsea, Spurs who score outside the main striker but Leicester have it as well. They had four players getting 5+ last season, we had one and he’s gone.

Their attacking three equivalent to our attacking three; Maddison, Barnes, Perez got 20 goals between them. Their Silva equivalent; Iheanacho got five.

We aren’t going to get close to that in my opinion.

So whilst I think Neto is good and Podence is good, it’s not enough. Traore gets more slack as he hasn’t played but he could easily be in this conversation as well.

This system relies on goals from those players and they’re just not coming. And, in truth can anyone see that changing? I can’t see those two or Traore getting near 20 this season and that’s just to compete with the side who will be the lowest scorers in the top six.

Admittedly with our defensive record we may not need it to be as good as the rest but it’s actually some way off.

Would a change in system help on this front? Probably but we don’t know the cost.

We can almost say for sure though that a lack of goals will cost us the top six.

For me, we sort the wing-backs out and the goals will come. I think the current pair need to be settled in properly and get used to the system before we say statements like your last one.

 

[gullykular]

Some thoughts here on how we can build play from the back and utilise our talent in wide areas better with a view to becoming more expansive and territorially dominant

 

[kennyB]

I personally don't think that either Podence or Neto are top class PL as yet. They may become so, especially Neto but a long way to go to establish themselves in that bracket. As for Adama, just a question, why is he not improving? What is Nuno advising him to do to improve?
Seems he's taken a step backwards this season. Bring back Stan!!