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Flump

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Lets see how you feel if this squad is in a relegation battle.

Sometimes you don't wait for the issue - you see the issue coming.

I hope i'm wrong but really concerned about the level of investment in recent times.

Plus the connection has gone downhill since Dalrymple left.

Am i concerned? Yes.

If you want to complain about the squad, complain about the squad.

But you started a thread asking about the finances and value of the club at the point Fosun took over and now - to do that, and think that would get you the answers you want, just shows you've got a fundamental lack of understanding about how companies work.

Fosun haven't taken a penny out of Wolves. But that's a completely separate issue from how you perceive the quality of the squad.

So do you just want to have a bit of a rant, to get it all out of your system? Would that make you feel better?
 

theweave

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It feels like you are asking forum members all these questions in an attempt to justify yourself not renewing. You don't have to justify yourself. Football is something we all love. You should enjoy going whether its for the social side, what you're watching on the pitch or whatever else. If you aren't enjoying it or don't feel you are getting value for money then don't go. Asking all these questions isn't going to change anything, it's a personal decision on if you want to continue to go or not.
 

Contrarian

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It feels like you are asking forum members all these questions in an attempt to justify yourself not renewing. You don't have to justify yourself. Football is something we all love. You should enjoy going whether its for the social side, what you're watching on the pitch or whatever else. If you aren't enjoying it or don't feel you are getting value for money then don't go. Asking all these questions isn't going to change anything, it's a personal decision on if you want to continue to go or not.

Yep. All those fans we deride of clubs like Liverpool, Man U, Barca etc - at least they get to win things. At top level, that's the state it's in. Everything will be won by the same few clubs every season. I don't know the answer, I'd think this is a problem in the long term. Will football retain it's huge popularity when it's obviously gettign less and less genuinely competitive? But for some reason, it doesn't seem to matter. Go just about anywhere in the world and you see people in Liverpool, Man U and Barca kit.

I guess all we can wait for is that one final, that one trophy as it would mean much more to us than the cartel adding their 20th title, or whatever. What about Leicester fans? Are they content with that one league title? I suspect not and when you look at their forum, it's not too different too here. Plenty panicking that they the club is in decline. That title is almost forgotten. And it certainly has not led to Leicester joining the Big 7.

Enjoy it while it lasts. We'll have worse seasons than even the 2 just gone.
 

wolf1975

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Keep hearing Jeff, Fosun and some fans talking about managing us within FFP rules

So fair enough. Let’s look at FFP

If we maxed out our limit how much could we spend this year? Or over the next few years?

Does anybody know?
 

Bugsy911

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Keep hearing Jeff, Fosun and some fans talking about managing us within FFP rules

So fair enough. Let’s look at FFP

If we maxed out our limit how much could we spend this year? Or over the next few years?

Does anybody know?

Ask Villa they spend whatever they like without a care in the world for ffp.

Even buying the stadium they already own to get around it.
 

MasWolf

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It's so complicated that they can tell us anything and we'd be none the wiser. Personally, I think they're using it as an excuse not to spend - but I guess that's just the cynical side of me.
 
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I think the actual amount is not relevant according to Fosun. We could spend more, a lot more, and stay within FFP.

However they are saying that we could not spend enough to compete with the top 4/6 regularly and stay within FFP. That would likely cost billions over a multi year period. How much did Abramovic spend at Chelsea?

So I think their thoughts are that there is no point to spend big to finish 8th, and they cant spend big enough for top 4, so self sustaining it is.
 

Flump

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Google it and you can find the articles from January that had it listed by club, that will give you enough of an idea.
 

jrpb-3

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Keep hearing Jeff, Fosun and some fans talking about managing us within FFP rules

So fair enough. Let’s look at FFP

If we maxed out our limit how much could we spend this year? Or over the next few years?

Does anybody know?
As FFP is is calculated over 3 rolling years it's not quite as simple as looking at any one year unless you assume you will have no money to spend in the other years and spend it all in one year, also more than one set of rules, we were also caught up in UEFA rules which were stricter and we breached so came to an arrangement on future spending to address that, not sure if we are now out of that period or not or if some of the additional limitations still apply. If terms of spending also it's not all just down to transfers also some limits on how much you can increase wage bill by year on year I think, so if turnover had increased massively you might have a lot available to spend for transfers but be more limited on how much wage bill could be increased by (I might not have the details on that quite correct)
 

Leominster_Wolf

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Keep hearing Jeff, Fosun and some fans talking about managing us within FFP rules

So fair enough. Let’s look at FFP

If we maxed out our limit how much could we spend this year? Or over the next few years?

Does anybody know?
go on then.....I'll humour you

It very much depends on whether you look at it from a
Can spend;
Will spend;
Want to spend;
Perspective.

PL FFP rules are that clubs can make a 'loss' of £5m per year (total of £15m over a 3 year accounting cycle) - however this can be increased to £35m per year (£105m over 3 year cycle) provided the owners (or related party) cover the additional £30m.
All complicated by covid of course.

So the question is, do we live within our means (which is where the club are indicating we are at) or max out the credit card and live to FFP limits and saddle the club with Debt.

In most cases owners underwrite interest free loans to the club - but effectively this is a debt that remains.
For example because of how Ashley ran Newcastle (pretty much at break even) the new owners now have significant 'spend' available providing they underwrite the debt, and max out the CC

There are lots of variables in play and no hard and fast answer.

The point Jeff alluded to in the ask wolves video, is that FFP ultimately has a limit for everyone barring the greed six, because income streams will never allow you to catch up with them, hence why we are looking at other avenues to increase this. Newcastle can spunk loads at it, but it will have a limit. They splurge now and the amount they can spend in subsequent years will be reduced.

below is a table @Flump was referring too

1654696675518.png
 

wolf1975

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go on then.....I'll humour you

It very much depends on whether you look at it from a
Can spend;
Will spend;
Want to spend;
Perspective.

PL FFP rules are that clubs can make a 'loss' of £5m per year (total of £15m over a 3 year accounting cycle) - however this can be increased to £35m per year (£105m over 3 year cycle) provided the owners (or related party) cover the additional £30m.
All complicated by covid of course.

So the question is, do we live within our means (which is where the club are indicating we are at) or max out the credit card and live to FFP limits and saddle the club with Debt.

In most cases owners underwrite interest free loans to the club - but effectively this is a debt that remains.
For example because of how Ashley ran Newcastle (pretty much at break even) the new owners now have significant 'spend' available providing they underwrite the debt, and max out the CC

There are lots of variables in play and no hard and fast answer.

The point Jeff alluded to in the ask wolves video, is that FFP ultimately has a limit for everyone barring the greed six, because income streams will never allow you to catch up with them, hence why we are looking at other avenues to increase this. Newcastle can spunk loads at it, but it will have a limit. They splurge now and the amount they can spend in subsequent years will be reduced.

below is a table @Flump was referring too

View attachment 28274

Thank you. Good info.

So we could spend. Just choosing not to.

Really concerned where football is going. It’s such a closed shop with VAR and FFP.

Just wish we had a bit more ambition and not a practically no risk transfer policy.

Not just Wolves but you have to ask what’s the point?

I want to see Wolves win. Not be happy seeing PL entertainment whilst players. Managers and owners make bigger bucks whilst asking fans to pay more and more.
 

Rhoswolf

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Thank you. Good info.

So we could spend. Just choosing not to.

Really concerned where football is going. It’s such a closed shop with VAR and FFP.

Just wish we had a bit more ambition and not a practically no risk transfer policy.

Not just Wolves but you have to ask what’s the point?

I want to see Wolves win. Not be happy seeing PL entertainment whilst players. Managers and owners make bigger bucks whilst asking fans to pay more and more.
You appear have answered your own question in your penultimate para, if you need to "ask what's the point" then best you find something more rewarding to spend your hard-earned on.
 

Bawtry Wolf

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Thank you. Good info.
So we could spend. Just choosing not to.

Really concerned where football is going. It’s such a closed shop with VAR and FFP.

Just wish we had a bit more ambition and not a practically no risk transfer policy.

Not just Wolves but you have to ask what’s the point?

I want to see Wolves win. Not be happy seeing PL entertainment whilst players. Managers and owners make bigger bucks whilst asking fans to pay more and more
You do realise that we are unlikely to win the Premier League. In the 145 years of our history we have been in the top division for 67 of them so less than half. The number of clubs coming from the 2nd division to the first and then winning it within 5 years isn’t huge so the likelihood is small if that is your wish. Plus we’ve only won the title ourselves 3 times. Similarly with the FA Cup we’ve won it 4 times and the League Cup twice.

Don’t get me wrong I’d love to win something but I am realistic enough to realise that it’s not guaranteed.

If you’ve suddenly realised that the Premier League consists of huge wages and massive transfer fees I am not sure where you’ve been for the last 30 years.
 

wolf1975

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You appear have answered your own question in your penultimate para, if you need to "ask what's the point" then best you find something more rewarding to spend your hard-earned on.

I have as swinging that way with my thoughts from the original post.

Just wanted to hear other views to see if I was alone.

It’s Wolves though isn’t it.

Renewed today.

One more year.
 

wolf1975

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Thank you. Good info.

You do realise that we are unlikely to win the Premier League. In the 145 years of our history we have been in the top division for 67 of them so less than half. The number of clubs coming from the 2nd division to the first and then winning it within 5 years isn’t huge so the likelihood is small if that is your wish. Plus we’ve only won the title ourselves 3 times. Similarly with the FA Cup we’ve won it 4 times and the League Cup twice.

Don’t get me wrong I’d love to win something but I am realistic enough to realise that it’s not guaranteed.

If you’ve suddenly realised that the Premier League consists of huge wages and massive transfer fees I am not sure where you’ve been for the last 30 years.

And I think that’s my point.

If you can’t win. Why play?

Thanks Bly thing can be entertainment and just a day out.

I want Wolves to win.

Or at least try to win.

Our plan is all about hanging in there and making money.
 

whitnash wolf ex.dewsbury

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Thank you. Good info.

You do realise that we are unlikely to win the Premier League. In the 145 years of our history we have been in the top division for 67 of them so less than half. The number of clubs coming from the 2nd division to the first and then winning it within 5 years isn’t huge so the likelihood is small if that is your wish. Plus we’ve only won the title ourselves 3 times. Similarly with the FA Cup we’ve won it 4 times and the League Cup twice.

Don’t get me wrong I’d love to win something but I am realistic enough to realise that it’s not guaranteed.

If you’ve suddenly realised that the Premier League consists of huge wages and massive transfer fees I am not sure where you’ve been for the last 30 years.
agree with your points but have been out of the top div.56 seasons,didn`t play during a number of war years
 

JadeWolf

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And I think that’s my point.

If you can’t win. Why play?

Thanks Bly thing can be entertainment and just a day out.

I want Wolves to win.

Or at least try to win.

Our plan is all about hanging in there and making money.
3 top half finishes in 4 years isn’t “hanging in there”.
 

Leominster_Wolf

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Thank you. Good info.

So we could spend. Just choosing not to.

Really concerned where football is going. It’s such a closed shop with VAR and FFP.

Just wish we had a bit more ambition and not a practically no risk transfer policy.

Not just Wolves but you have to ask what’s the point?

I want to see Wolves win. Not be happy seeing PL entertainment whilst players. Managers and owners make bigger bucks whilst asking fans to pay more and more.
Football has pretty much been a closed shop since sky made the big 6 revenue so big,. And if this is coming as news to you, I don’t know where you have been.

The old adage money begets money has never been truer.

because they are the sky 6 - they get more matches screened and therefore get more money.

because they get into Europe - they get more money

Because they are bigger they attract bigger and more sponsorship - and they closed that loophole by stopping clubs getting artificially inflated sponsorship deals. Wolves couldn’t announce a £100m Fosun shirt sponsorship deal, because they don’t allow it. The deal has to be commensurate to the club stature/size.

in the last 20 seasons the three (60) domestic trophies have been won by a greed 6 club on 53 occasions.

Of the 7 non greed winners, only Leicester are still in the Premier league (Swansea, Portsmouth, Middlesbrough, Birmingham and Wigan being the others)

Even within the greed league there are levels
Man City - 14 trophies
Liverpool - 6 trophies
Man U - 12 trophies
Chelsea - 13 trophies
Arsenal - 7 trophies
Spurs - 1 trophy

so even with their money, spurs haven’t been able to buy a domestic title since 2008

YearFA CupPremier LeagueLeague Cup
2021/22Liverpool Manchester City Liverpool
2020/21Leicester CityManchester City Manchester City
2019/20Arsenal Liverpool Manchester City
2018/19Manchester City Manchester City Manchester City
2017/18Chelsea Manchester City Manchester City
2016/17Arsenal Chelsea Manchester United
2015/16Manchester United Leicester CityManchester City
2014/15Arsenal Chelsea Chelsea
2013/14Arsenal Manchester City Manchester City
2012/13Wigan AthleticManchester United Swansea City
2011/12Chelsea Manchester City Liverpool
2010/11Manchester City Manchester United Birmingham City
2009/10Chelsea Chelsea Manchester United
2008/09Chelsea Manchester United Manchester United
2007/08Portsmouth Manchester United Totttenham Hotspur
2006/07Chelsea Manchester United Chelsea
2005/06LiverpoolChelsea Manchester United
2004/05Arsenal Chelsea Chelsea
2003/04Manchester United Arsenal Middlesborough
2002/03Arsenal Manchester United Liverpool
 

oldgoldheart

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As football fans ( have we been brainwashed into forgetting what is important? )

" No issue being self sustainable "
" We need to balance the books"
" We need to build the brand to compete"
" We need the right kind of player "
" I can understand ticket price rise as we need to compete"
etc

When I watch Wolves 3 things matter to me. Win. Lose or Draw. Those 3 things dictate your league position.

End of.

From there league position will be dictated.

The way Fosun are operating at the moment really concerns me.

They are investing very little money. Using income only to run the club. Whilst creaming profit off for themselves.

It is a win win for them.

They only paid 30m for the club. Have saleable assets and parachute payments if it goes wrong. They can't lose. Sell players take money and sell club.

They are more interested in global fans then born and bred tribal Wolves fans who truly support the club.

If the team finishes higher up the league players, staff and management get bonuses ( all of football ) Wolves fans get ticket price increases. If we are "one pack" why aren't supporters on a similar scheme to drive the club forward.

If there is no or little investment coming what is the point of Fosun?

We might as well be a community Non Profit football club and run the club on 100% of profits.

Not Profits minus Fosun Profit. ( without any investment )

Yes they placed a bet during that championship season but again a lot were loans via Mendes and players with reputation and resale value. Not saying Fosun aren't smart - they are very smart.

Just saying what is a Wolves fan to you?

Winning matches or building a brand and being sustainable via a company creaming profit at little risk.
I worry about their strategy but fosun are not creaming off profits. They wrote off a large loan last year
 

oldgoldheart

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Also, with Wolves income a Non Profit run club would easily get loans from external lenders with the income generated from PL clubs.

Why are FOSUN needed if no investment? What are they doing for the fans - true fans from Wolverhampton?

If they could get 30,000 global fans to pay £2000 for a season ticket they would go with them.
Utter nonsense mate
 

Eastyorksyeltz

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Thank you. Good info.

You do realise that we are unlikely to win the Premier League. In the 145 years of our history we have been in the top division for 67 of them so less than half. The number of clubs coming from the 2nd division to the first and then winning it within 5 years isn’t huge so the likelihood is small if that is your wish. Plus we’ve only won the title ourselves 3 times. Similarly with the FA Cup we’ve won it 4 times and the League Cup twice.

Don’t get me wrong I’d love to win something but I am realistic enough to realise that it’s not guaranteed.

If you’ve suddenly realised that the Premier League consists of huge wages and massive transfer fees I am not sure where you’ve been for the last 30 years.
If we are to be honest it's not just about the last 30 years either. professional football was never about fair competition and sport for sport's sake. The Edwardian founders of the professional Leagues were business men and showmen looking to gain status and profit, the players were working men looking for a way to make a living out of their talents, rather than their graft and to get adulation in the process. The customers were trying to escape the same drudgery, or reflect in the same status and glory.
It has never been the ideal that we, the paying public, might like to believe. Yes, the absurdity of the sums involved in recent times has made the issues more apparent, and nostalgia is a powerful emotion, but the principles are the same. We buy into it, in much the same way as other forms of entertainment. Suspension of disbelief.
We like to think the motives of players and owners are the same as ours. The loyalty, the ambition, the love of the game. In reality there may at times be synergies, but at root the difference in our position as the consumers, as opposed to the sellers of those dreams, will always be there.
We do always have the choice, we can opt out. But most of us won't. We can try to make our chosen vice more palatable, at one extreme we could just watch amateur sport after all, but if we want the biggest show that the circus provides, it comes with a price that matches.
 

Rhoswolf

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I worry about their strategy but fosun are not creaming off profits. They wrote off a large loan last year
Don't think transferring it to equity means what you imply, purely an accounting transaction to make us more attractive for investors.
 

Pagey

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And I think that’s my point.

If you can’t win. Why play?

Thanks Bly thing can be entertainment and just a day out.

I want Wolves to win.

Or at least try to win.

Our plan is all about hanging in there and making money.
Ffs, I'm looking to relocate, which stand and section you in? Will do my utmost to avoid. Just spent 20 mins reading this thread, I'll never get back, it's like trying to explain the offside rule to a 2 year old
 
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Eastyorksyeltz

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Don't think transferring it to equity means what you imply, purely an accounting transaction to make us more attractive for investors.
Bit of both really. No guarantee of a like for like return on disposal of that equity. It does show a faith in the business, that is the opposite of "creaming off profits."
 

Rhoswolf

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Ffs, I'm looking to relocate, which stand and section you in? Will do my utmost to avoid. Just pent 20 mins reading this thread, I'll never get back, it's like trying to explain the offside rule to a 2 year old
Relocate to Howfen's seat in the South Bank then I can harangue all game.
 

Sussex Wolf

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Bit of both really. No guarantee of a like for like return on disposal of that equity. It does show a faith in the business, that is the opposite of "creaming off profits."

Exactly so. The conversion from non interest debt to equity makes it simpler and more transparent for a potential investor to buy into Wolves since it reduces the uncertainty around repayment of a loan. But as equity, there is less certainty for Fosun in so much that as a loan, they had slightly more certainty of getting their money in the event of a sale or if the club got into difficulties or was relegated.

Overall, the biggest benefit is simplifying a potential sale, both for the extra buyer transparency and the implied confidence Fosun has in the club’s future value.
 

oldgoldheart

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Don't think transferring it to equity means what you imply, purely an accounting transaction to make us more attractive for investors.
But “creaming off” implies withdrawing funds. I am no fosun apologist. I dont ;like quite a bit of what they do but they are not creaming off cash. They have converted a loan to equity. When they sell they might make money but when that happens someone else will be paying and will have their own plans.
 

WeAreTheWolvesII

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The OP makes some fair points.

Raising the ticket prices when you have zero intention of spending is a ****s move.

And those thinking it's great competing for a top 10 finish, I'm sure it won't be the case for too long.

Speak to Burnley, ****, Stoke fans, and many more, they all got very bored very quickly of being in the Premier League to just make up the numbers. And, make no mistake, that's what we're doing now - along with any club that has no intention of spending.

You can say look at those clubs now and it is ****, but we're going that way, and it's hardly great for us now.

Football is about emotion, passion, enjoyment. I had a much better experience as a fan when we won League One than this boring season where we've just come 10th in the Premier League. But it shouldn't be the case should it??
 

optimuswolf

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And this is the brainwashing that has gone on

Fans happy to be best of the rest.

Breeds epathy and accepting 2nd best.

Fans pay more to watch this whilst players, management and owners make big money.

Football is about winning things.

End of.

Football is tribal. Always has been. It is now becoming entertainment.
You'd rather be norwich then? Winning the champo then getting relegated on a loop.

We have come close to winning both the FA cup and europa league in the last 4 seasons after winning the championship. Its hardly a desert
 

optimuswolf

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Yep. All those fans we deride of clubs like Liverpool, Man U, Barca etc - at least they get to win things. At top level, that's the state it's in. Everything will be won by the same few clubs every season. I don't know the answer, I'd think this is a problem in the long term. Will football retain it's huge popularity when it's obviously gettign less and less genuinely competitive? But for some reason, it doesn't seem to matter. Go just about anywhere in the world and you see people in Liverpool, Man U and Barca kit.

I guess all we can wait for is that one final, that one trophy as it would mean much more to us than the cartel adding their 20th title, or whatever. What about Leicester fans? Are they content with that one league title? I suspect not and when you look at their forum, it's not too different too here. Plenty panicking that they the club is in decline. That title is almost forgotten. And it certainly has not led to Leicester joining the Big 7.

Enjoy it while it lasts. We'll have worse seasons than even the 2 just gone.
The long term direction, sadly, is to everyone supporting one of the 'big' clubs. But we can resist, including opposing all plans that accelerate it.
 

Stoichkov

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I have as swinging that way with my thoughts from the original post.

Just wanted to hear other views to see if I was alone.

It’s Wolves though isn’t it.

Renewed today.

One more year.

Jesus just get on with it you diva

No-one’s forcing you.
 
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