Everton, surely a points deduction?

[maws]

They are both financial mismanagement to a degree though.

I agree to a point, but Bury weren’t gaining an advantage not paying their players in fact it probably disheartened their players

Everton were out buying players to help them stay up they couldn’t afford

It’s different

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Wouldn't all the claims against man city over 8 years bankrupt them?

I don’t think anything is going to backrupt a club with their owners wealth.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Still cannot fathom how a £20 million over spend results in a 10 point deduction, yet going into administration only results in a 9 point reduction.

Administration is far worse for the future of the club and for employees at the club and for businesses involved loosing money owed to them.

All seems disproportionate to me.

Except that the Everton case includes the fact Everton deliberately misled the authorities about their finances, when they were already under scrutiny because of prior overspend and a promise to behave better. Also, the league had already given Everton a massive get off by allowing them Covid losses on a wholly different scale to any other club, so their behaviour was far worse than the apparent small overspend that’s actually been acknowledged in this ruling.

To all of that can be added the dire state of the club’s finances even outside of FFP considerations. In short, they are and have been a basket case, and a poor example to any other PL club.

 

[Big Saft Kid]

The EPL and the EFL are two separate organisations. The EPL can certainly dock them enough points so they end up in the bottom 3, but when they become an EFL club it would be up to them to place them within their divisions.

I suppose if the EPL were to expel them there could be a situation where they would have to apply for membership of the EFL who could grant it on the condition they start in league 2, but I can’t see that happening on the basis that no team has effectively been demoted 3 levels in 130 odd years of league football.

However, when Boston got relegated out the football league, the conference didn’t want them and they ended up playing in Tier 6 the following season, but I think that’s because of some irregular financial activity that took place when they were promoted from the conference to the football league.

It hadn't happened in the roughly the same length of time in the Scottish League either -- until it happened to Rangers. If City were chucked out of the EPL (don't rule it out), what choice would they have? There is no Super League for them to go to. If the EFL accepted them, I can't see them starting anywhere higher than League Two.

 

[Madmalc]

Still cannot fathom how a £20 million over spend results in a 10 point deduction, yet going into administration only results in a 9 point reduction.

Administration is far worse for the future of the club and for employees at the club and for businesses involved loosing money owed to them.

All seems disproportionate to me.

Derby had 12 points deducted for going into Administration plus 9 points for breaking FFP rules, total 21 points.

 

[Ogerp]

Derby had 12 points deducted for going into Administration plus 9 points for breaking FFP rules, total 21 points.

That punishment was from the EFL though.

Seems that the EFL and the EPL have a different criteria for punishing clubs, which I find baffling. No consistency.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

The problem the EPL has is they haven’t specified a punishment tariff for FFP offences which means that Everton’s may appear harsh until others are dealt with.

Having said that some of the noises that are coming out against the penalty are ludicrous. The claim they didn’t get a material advantage is actually down to incompetence. That actually £10m could have been used to buy a Lemina, RAN, Doyle, Toti or Dawson, all of whom would have improved Everton’s squad and therefore create an advantage. The fact they were working with the EPL and still couldn’t get the numbers to balance is farcical. Did they have to sign Tarkowski, Coady, etc,etc? Leicester didn’t sign anyone last year to stay in compliance, we sold £140m of players.

 

[lobodelsur]

Good article here indicating that Everton essentially ignored the regulations and consequential warnings to get their house in order. To have a business plan based on finishing (on average) 8th over numerous consecutive seasons was foolhardy, ignoring all of the unknowns that football has a habit of springing on us (e.g. Newcastle takeover).

Everton pay price of leadership’s manic spending and blind eye to warnings | Will Unwin

Everton’s disastrous long-term plan underlined by fortunes wasted on a coaching carousel’s constantly twisting taste in players

www.theguardian.com

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

As Everton have been found guilty of breaking the Financial rules over a 3 year period, wouldn’t that mean any club who finished below them during that 3 year period is in for a shout for compensation?
That's 9 relegated clubs..

They only actually break the rules in the. 3rd year when the rolling 3 year losses kick in though. Only one team (Burnley) got relegated in that season, who would have stayed up. Of course if they didn't get back to within the limits in 22/23 you'd really hope the PL would already be sorting that for this season!

Just btw, does anyone know if compensation to other clubs comes under FFP , I mean, if that happens they're in a never ending cycle!

 

[SmokeyGB]

Because the EPL and the EFL are different, I can see Man City and Chelsea being treated like the Rugby Union Team being given a 60 point deduction to each, this puts them in great danger of relegation and not a problem the EFL have to deal with.
If they go down, punishment is done (EPL have been seen to act) and they come back up the next year with the money the clubs earn 1 year without EPL wont harm them.

The question is what will UEFA do ? Will the ban both clubs?

Also think all teams should get a full season Transfer ban and also NO option to renew and lapsed contracts (U23's to be used)

 

[Southdownswolf]

Also think all teams should get a full season Transfer ban and also NO option to renew and lapsed contracts (U23's to be used)

I think that there would be another legal battle against the premier League by the players involved if that was the case...

 

[WickedWolfie]

I think that there would be another legal battle against the premier League by the players involved if that was the case...

Possibly although they would presumably get to walk as free agents and potentially get signing on fees elsewhere.

 

[GoldenHorseshoe]

That punishment was from the EFL though.

Seems that the EFL and the EPL have a different criteria for punishing clubs, which I find baffling. No consistency.

You're expecting consistency??

 

[Ogerp]

You're expecting consistency??

Since they are both members of the Football Association, the ruling body, then yes.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

Good article here indicating that Everton essentially ignored the regulations and consequential warnings to get their house in order. To have a business plan based on finishing (on average) 8th over numerous consecutive seasons was foolhardy, ignoring all of the unknowns that football has a habit of springing on us (e.g. Newcastle takeover).

Everton pay price of leadership’s manic spending and blind eye to warnings | Will Unwin

Everton’s disastrous long-term plan underlined by fortunes wasted on a coaching carousel’s constantly twisting taste in players

www.theguardian.com

Similar article in The Sunday Times. Apparently they were in breach 2 years ago but were ‘let off’ by the EPL provided they worked with them. They then didn’t despite warnings and ‘issued off’ the EPL. So the decision to sanction was essentially they were given a chance and blew it.

 

[dizzydonut]

They only actually break the rules in the. 3rd year when the rolling 3 year losses kick in though. Only one team (Burnley) got relegated in that season, who would have stayed up. Of course if they didn't get back to within the limits in 22/23 you'd really hope the PL would already be sorting that for this season!

Just btw, does anyone know if compensation to other clubs comes under FFP , I mean, if that happens they're in a never ending cycle!

Isn’t every year effectively a 3rd year when its rolling? Or am I missing the point ( genuine question)

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Isn’t every year effectively a 3rd year when its rolling? Or am I missing the point ( genuine question)

Well I'd say that if they lost (purely for example)

17/18 - £50m
18/19 - £5m
19/20 - £50m
20/21 - £50m
21/22 - £25m

Then they are only in breach in 21/22 when they broke the 3 year rolling cap. However from some of the stuff above it's obviously not that simple and the PL have effectively given them some slack and monitored them closely. The trouble is they've tried some dodges and also planned on more income (e.g. position driven money) than they've actually achieved. No excuses for them, but it's obviously a difficult position e.g. if a team plan for European football and then misses out, but can't cut their outgoings to match.

 

[wolfslair]

True, but a lot of the charges are probably only minor infringements. Maybe the more serious charges should be concentrated on. Either way, with that amount of charges, Manchester City should be made to pay the consequences of their actions. Chelsea should also be worried.

Some of the major charges have an issue around how the evidence was obtained. As it is believed most of the evidence came from the illegal hacking of city.

So the powers that be are digging through everything themselves to find it to make sure evidence of the real dirty stuff isn’t just thrown out on technicality.

They say when you come for king you better not miss…..They screw this case up, they won’t get another chance.

This one if it pays off with have a seismic impact on football as we know it. More care is needed to get it right than the small fry case in comparison involving Everton.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Some of the major charges have an issue around how the evidence was obtained. As it is believed most of the evidence came from the illegal hacking of city.

So the powers that be are digging through everything themselves to find it to make sure evidence of the real dirty stuff isn’t just thrown out on technicality.

They say when you come for king you better not miss…..They screw this case up, they won’t get another chance.

This one if it pays off with have a seismic impact on football as we know it. More care is needed to get it right than the small fry case in comparison involving Everton.

Would love to know what rule we haven’t broken that Everton want us investigated for lol.

 

[old wittonian]

Well I'd say that if they lost (purely for example)

17/18 - £50m
18/19 - £5m
19/20 - £50m
20/21 - £50m
21/22 - £25m

Then they are only in breach in 21/22 when they broke the 3 year rolling cap. However from some of the stuff above it's obviously not that simple and the PL have effectively given them some slack and monitored them closely. The trouble is they've tried some dodges and also planned on more income (e.g. position driven money) than they've actually achieved. No excuses for them, but it's obviously a difficult position e.g. if a team plan for European football and then misses out, but can't cut their outgoings to match.

Especially if a team were to miss out because officials ****ed up.

 

[clivewolves]

There's a few angles you could look at this situation.

The one I don't understand is why many pundits think this punishment is too harsh on Everton because of the club working with the Premier League for the last couple of years. Just because you show the police where you buried the bodies doesn't mean you can get away with murder. Ten points doesn't seem harsh. Was it a £20m overspend? So a point for every couple of million. Everton are still more likely to stay up than get relegated even with the points deduction. Of course this now has to be the standard other situations are judged by so if Man City and Chelsea are found guilty then their punishments should be relative to the Everton's.

 

[WolfLing]

Was it a £20m overspend?

It wasn't.

In the context of the idiom you mentioned, it's like showing the police where a couple of the bodies are buried, but not showing them the couple of dozen others.

 

[Ogerp]

 

[Corporate Wolf]

The January window in theory might give everyone an indication of which clubs are seriously worried about their financial positions.

 

[WolfLing]

The January window in theory might give everyone an indication of which clubs are seriously worried about their financial positions.

Net spending in the last 5 years can help predict who it might be too.

I can see Forest, West Ham and Newcastle being amongst the most active sellers in the next 2 windows.

It will be interesting to see who the first club to fail the new 'Squad Cost' rules, and what the punishment for that could be.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

I think there was a 28 day deadline for compensation claims, but is there a likely date for a judgement? And just to ask again, does anyone know if any compensation counts towards FFP?

 

[lets all have a disco]

I think there was a 28 day deadline for compensation claims, but is there a likely date for a judgement? And just to ask again, does anyone know if any compensation counts towards FFP?

There is articles doing the rounds, that if compensation is awarded Everton will get a further 9 point deduction..

 

[hollo]

Fulham and bournemouth have spent a lot in the last three years. I think bournemouth were hoping to flip alex scott but he has injury issues.

 

[hollo]

There is articles doing the rounds, that if compensation is awarded Everton will get a further 9 point deduction..

Could compensation be dealt with before the start of next season.

 

[lets all have a disco]

Could compensation be dealt with before the start of next season.

I don't nw....was just passing on what some articles are saying...

Everton face administration if rival clubs are compensated

Mail Sport revealed on Friday that Burnley, Leeds and Leicester are pressing ahead with plans to bring a compensation claim against Everton, which would be heard by another three-person panel.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

I don't nw....was just passing on what some articles are saying...

Everton face administration if rival clubs are compensated

Mail Sport revealed on Friday that Burnley, Leeds and Leicester are pressing ahead with plans to bring a compensation claim against Everton, which would be heard by another three-person panel.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Everton get done for compo they are finished as a club

 

[WolfLing]

There is articles doing the rounds, that if compensation is awarded Everton will get a further 9 point deduction..

I think that's because it would force them into administration?

 

[Sussex Wolf]

Everton get done for compo they are finished as a club

I think that's because it would force them into administration?

I’m not sure finished as a club, but I think certainly as a PL club for the foreseeable future. It would also end their planned stadium move.

 

[SingYourHeartsOut]

Could compensation be dealt with before the start of next season.

I think given that the PL wanted to sort this last season, and they have set an earlier deadline for submission of accounts, and they are working with Everton all the time, they might well be subject to another points deduction for 22/23 within this season.

 

[wolfslair]

Would love to know what rule we haven’t broken that Everton want us investigated for lol.

They want us investigated??!

hahaha, have they turned to becoming grasses and trying to snitch to lessen the sentence? A quality of which is frowned upon by any scouser I have ever met…….

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

They want us investigated??!

hahaha, have they turned to becoming grasses and trying to snitch to lessen the sentence? A quality of which is frowned upon by any scouser I have ever met…….

No they want us villa and forest investigated apparently

Quite laughable, considering we have sold many and will sell more in the coming windows

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

Similar article in The Sunday Times. Apparently they were in breach 2 years ago but were ‘let off’ by the EPL provided they worked with them. They then didn’t despite warnings and ‘issued off’ the EPL. So the decision to sanction was essentially they were given a chance and blew it.

The 2019/20 and 2020/21 seasons clubs were given some lee way as far as FFP because of covid so its understandable that they were let off to a degree,although them saying they lost £100 million in those years because of covid is ludicrous,i think we claimed £17 mil
Its the fact that since then they have continued with their spend now pay later strategy ,which has now come back to bite them,and rightly so

 

[Ned]

From what I can see there’s about £4m between each league position in terms of prize money. So realistically Everton have probably been given a £12m-£16m fine based on how they were/are going on the pitch. So ignoring the league position and points totals as it won’t matter this season, that’s not a terrible outcome for them.

 

[Sussex Wolf]

From what I can see there’s about £4m between each league position in terms of prize money. So realistically Everton have probably been given a £12m-£16m fine based on how they were/are going on the pitch. So ignoring the league position and points totals as it won’t matter this season, that’s not a terrible outcome for them.

It’s not as long as they don’t go down or subsequent lose the financial compensation case as a result of this verdict. As the reports say, the three clubs lodging a claim are seeking up to £300m between the three of them. If they were successful, then that would likely force Everton into administration and likely that would relegate them. It’s possible that reports the EPL said Everton gained no “sporting advantage” as a result of their breach was worded to help them duck that claim from the three clubs.

 

[Ned]

It’s not as long as they don’t go down or subsequent lose the financial compensation case as a result of this verdict. As the reports say, the three clubs lodging a claim are seeking up to £300m between the three of them. If they were successful, then that would likely force Everton into administration and likely that would relegate them. It’s possible that reports the EPL said Everton gained no “sporting advantage” as a result of their breach was worded to help them duck that claim from the three clubs.

Any other season and the 10 points would be terminal but this season is so bad down the bottom that they should still be comfortable, they just won’t progress up the table like they were threatening.

This all seems a little too convenient for all parties concerned, I really can’t see how these other three clubs can win a case against them. There are too many variable and what ifs… would be funny though!