Bruno Lage

[Bawtry Wolf]

Rubbish. 18 shots today, 4 on target, 1 goal. Our strikers...... don't. And it's been a problem for more than this season.

Of those 18 shots I think about 3 were in the 18 yard box and to be honest apart from the goal and Neto’s header none of them were that dangerous

 

[Contrarian]

I actually think when we do recruit a player we tend to have a good strike record, its just not enough of them.

Compared to the past few decades, it's an incredible record! We've also done well at moving players on. Most (Cav, Costa, Cutrone etc) have done nothing since leaving us. And many had their peak here (eg Barry Douglas, Doc). The likes of Goncalves and Mir have done well, but they both wanted to leave, as did Jota, so you can't blame recruitment for that.

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

Moyes setup West Ham to actually attack, and not opt for a safety first approach.

Stats from today. City 78% possession, 31 shots, 8 on target. West ham 22% possession, 6 shots 2 on target. Set up to counter attack yes, and set up like we used to do against teams like Man City. Defend, defend ,defend then counter.

 

[sc91]

Stats from today. City 78% possession, 31 shots, 8 on target. West ham 22% possession, 6 shots 2 on target. Set up to counter attack yes, and set up like we used to do against teams like Man City. Defend, defend ,defend then counter.

Ah, so teams can actually be tactically flexible depending on their opponents.

 

[Superted]

Then why have we not used a game like today to give the players a run in 'his system' to see which going forward do have that ability, my thoughts? He hasn't got the personality, ability and/or respect to implement what he 'desires' and has little idea what to do outside of that.

Fair enough.

I don't know what the actual situation is/was.

All I know is that by hook or by crook we've got to 8th/9th place and if you're going to hold Bruno solely responsible for the poor performances the you have to give him the credit for the 51 points we've won.

He might ultimately prove not to be up to the task but I'm prepared to give him the benefit of the doubt for now to see what he can do if he gets a chance to play his way using his type of players.

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

Of those 18 shots I think about 3 were in the 18 yard box and to be honest apart from the goal and Neto’s header none of them were that dangerous

OK. So, our strikers, they are adept at putting the ball in the net?

 

[Ned]

I really don’t know where I stand on this. I think I’ll be ok with either outcome (stays or goes) but it’s not a decision that I would like to be making.

Over the whole season Bruno has probably earned the right to be given another pre season and some actual money to spend. However, the way the season has petered out is a HUGE cause for concern and makes me question whether Bruno can actually turn this form around.

What I would say is that if this awful 13 game run of “form” happened from game week 10-23 then I seriously doubt Bruno would be in charge of us currently.

 

[Hot Fuss]

I actually think when we do recruit a player we tend to have a good strike record, its just not enough of them.

It always seems to be for 3 years time. We need players who can improve the team now.

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

Ah, so teams can actually be tactically flexible depending on their opponents.

Yes, but you are missing my point, which is to play the way we did for the first three games over a full season you need a minimum 8 new and different style players, hence the revert to what the current players know. It's nothing to do with changing, because the squad he has can't, and when they do they are all at sea.

 

[sc91]

It always seems to be for 3 years time. We need players who can improve the team now.

I don't think that's the case lately. Sa has been the player of the season and Chiquinho looks by all accounts to be a starter, we all know Hwang.

 

[Mugwump]

Dead weird how all Bruno has done is turn up and play Nuno’s players in Nuno’s formation getting the same performances from them with a slightly better league position….and he’s the root of all problems.

Maybe he is, who knows. But this group looks like getting two head coaches sacked…

Maybe it's the system and not the players. I think we have enough quality and plenty of them could play in a different formation. I don't see how people can say he needs squad of his players because no manager gets that. It's something that evolves over time so you work with what you have.

 

[sc91]

Yes, but you are missing my point, which is to play the way we did for the first three games over a full season you need a minimum 8 new and different style players, hence the revert to what the current players know. It's nothing to do with changing, because the squad he has can't, and when they do they are all at sea.

And you are missing my point, you don't have to have a set way of playing, a coach can drill multiple systems into the players, this hasn't happened under Bruno.

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

It always seems to be for 3 years time. We need players who can improve the team now.

Which is what Bruno is saying in the E&S.

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

And you are missing my point, you don't have to have a set way of playing, a coach can drill multiple systems into the players, this hasn't happened under Bruno.

Except it has. As you mentioned the first three games were completely different. He found out that playing that way would not only **** his players, he'd have got the sack. He can play different formations, but the players he has just can't. I don't know why, because i'm not privvy to the workings of the team. Players aren't capable/Players don't want to/players don't want to play for the manager/manager doesn't trust the players. Take your pick.

 

[rubyloo]

There is no understanding between the players - they're all just watching to see what happens on the rare occasions we go forward. It's like a bunch of strangers, yet they train together every day. It's bizarre. You get absolutely no sense that there is anything remotely resembling a game plan.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Maybe it's the system and not the players. I think we have enough quality and plenty of them could play in a different formation. I don't see how people can say he needs squad of his players because no manager gets that. It's something that evolves over time so you work with what you have.

The players are nowhere near good enough as a group to play any other system than the turgid 5 at the back still. I am not sure we have a CB who can play in a 4, maybe Kilman but even then jury is still out until he does it.

 

[Bawtry Wolf]

OK. So, our strikers, they are adept at putting the ball in the net?

I wish they were. We create little and take most of our shots from distance that are speculative

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

I wish they were. We create little and take most of our shots from distance that are speculative

That's what i thought.

 

[Fenrir_]

I keep reading that this isn’t Bruno’s squad, so he can’t implement his style of football.
Isn’t Bruno supposed to be a top level manager ? If so , why the hell can’t he get a team full of internationals to adapt to his playing style. It’s not like he’s had a full pre season and 4/5 days a week on the training pitch every week to work on it.
He can go for me, I can’t be bothered to watch any more slow, backwards, sideways, goal shy, boring negative football. He had the tools he was clueless how to use them.

People do like to ignore the fact that as a career coach he's always worked with the players that have been given to him, even his stint at Benfica in the top job he took over mid season so had to work with what was there. It was when he started making the big decisions it went pear shaped, but taking a group of players from someone else is literally what he's done his whole career

There's no excuse for Lage not to have his own imprint on the side, none at all. Look at Danny Batth (funny his name has popped up a few times today!), he's a proper physical, no nonsense, non-footballing centre back but when Nuno came in Batth started to try to play a bit, how the manager wanted him to. He wasn't good at it but he was carrying out the manager's instructions and now we have people saying this incredibly talented squad can't play a different way to what they've done previously?! There might be players that don't fit the style exactly how he'd like, but to say they can't play any differently is nothing short of moronic

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

People do like to ignore the fact that as a career coach he's always worked with the players that have been given to him, even his stint at Benfica in the top job he took over mid season so had to work with what was there. It was when he started making the big decisions it went pear shaped, but taking a group of players from someone else is literally what he's done his whole career

There's no excuse for Lage not to have his own imprint on the side, none at all. Look at Danny Batth (funny his name has popped up a few times today!), he's a proper physical, no nonsense, non-footballing centre back but when Nuno came in Batth started to try to play a bit, how the manager wanted him to. He wasn't good at it but he was carrying out the manager's instructions and now we have people saying this incredibly talented squad can't play a different way to what they've done previously?! There might be players that don't fit the style exactly how he'd like, but to say they can't play any differently is nothing short of moronic

we have very different definitions of incredibly...

 

[sillytuna]

Surprised anyone can defend lage really. He hasn't has the best of support I agree but for the most part we've been awful to watch and totally lacked any recognisable shape.

What got us through was our defensive shape, something nuno drilled into us and where lage did a good job on certain players. I don't doubt that he's a coach of good ability.

But throughout the season he's completely failed to have an affect on games with his tactics once the game has started and post arsenal away his team selections were frequently bizarre.

Player performances have all dropped markedly since february, with no fight shown at all since that arsenal game. Motivation is down to the management team and clearly a squad who have previously been known for togetherness and spirit have been anything but.

The board take some share of the blame but the buck stops with Lage. He's just not good enough. Games like today he had to go aggressive and he didn't - yet again.

 

[Fenrir_]

we have very different definitions of incredibly...

Do we really? That's nice to know.

This squad has some proper ability in it, and can play good attacking football. Unfortunately it's coached by someone massively out of his depth and he's dragging them all down with him

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Do we really? That's nice to know.

This squad has some proper ability in it, and can play good attacking football. Unfortunately it's coached by someone massively out of his depth and he's dragging them all down with him

This squad has never demonstrated that at any point, it is a midtable at best group who can only play counterattacking, defensive football

 

[sillytuna]

This squad has never demonstrated that at any point, it is a midtable at best group who can only play counterattacking, defensive football

Even now we're 8th and I'd argue in recent weeks that's despite lage. We're poorly balanced but midtable at best is obviously untrue.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Even now we're 8th and I'd argue in recent weeks that's despite lage. We're poorly balanced but midtable at best is obviously untrue.

We are not better than Leicester, Brighton or Palace imo. Think we are lucky to be top half, and might not well be by the end of the year

 

[sillytuna]

We are not better than Leicester, Brighton or Palace imo. Think we are lucky to be top half, and might not well be by the end of the year

Not sure I agree. We were miles ahead but something seems to have happened behind the scenes. We do have to play a certain style I agree but the form drop off has been incredible.

 

[Oldgoldilox]

Surprised anyone can defend lage really. He hasn't has the best of support I agree but for the most part we've been awful to watch and totally lacked any recognisable shape.

What got us through was our defensive shape

Easiest spot the contradiction competition in history.

 

[Contrarian]

Ah, so teams can actually be tactically flexible depending on their opponents.

There's been a few comments critical of Bruno because "he kept changing the formation". Those poor players must be confused by all the changes.

Apparently changing the formation means the manager is "clueless". Contrast with "keeping the same formation". That's also clueless.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Not sure I agree. We were miles ahead but something seems to have happened behind the scenes. We do have to play a certain style I agree but the form drop off has been incredible.

We weren't really miles ahead in terms of performance. Were warning signs earlier in season, Sa was bailing us out at a far too regular rate and we were lucky in a fair amount of our wins

 

[JayStringer]

Saiss and Boly -two of our most experienced players- have made howlers in the last poor run of games that have contributed to us losing points. What options does Lage have there, and are they good ones? He could have played Totti. Chose not to. So okay, we can judge him based on that choice. Our best defender of the season - Kilman- is out injured. That's not a Lage choice, though we do have to credit him with giving Kilman the game time in the first place. And Boly wasn't getting game time during our best run of form. We don't know why -fitness or tactics- so we can't judge whether to credit Lage for that or not. We can't ignore that Saiss and Boly are players whom our head coach should be able to expect better from.

The season seems to have turned on that Leeds game. We can't blame Lage for the red card. Take that out of the game and we would have strolled to a win. Can we blame Lage for the collapse after the red card? It's probably fair to lay a portion of that blame on him, since it's his job to organize the players and have contingency plans. But, again, we can't overlook that there were players on the pitch making stupid decisions that Lage should be able to expect them not to make.

Can we blame Lage for Burnely and Brighton? I think it's fair to question him over those games. The team didn't seem motivated or organized. The latter is 100% Lage's job. The former...I would say the same as with the individual errors, I think we should ALL have the expectation that high-earning premier league players with a shot at Europe have a responsibility to motivate themselves.

And while we're handing out credit or blame, we can't overlook the tactical idea that got us points against Chelsea and Norwich. This hybrid 3/4 at the back approach with Jonny providing cover while the team gets forward. Lage deserved credit for those decisions, and also equally blame for taking the same approach against City. But if we're handing out blame for dropping points to City lets also remember Bruno's plan almost got us a draw against them earlier in the season and, as with the Leeds red card, he can't be blamed for a ref AND VAR inventing a handball to give a penalty.

If we're taking the season as a whole, then a team who finished 13th last season, and didn't invest in the summer, and lost key players to injury, are (currently) 8th. There are at least 10 clubs who would happily trade seasons with us. The couple immediately behind us...remains to be seen. But we are finishing higher than last season with arguably fewer squad options. I don't see how that is anything other than a credit to Lage.

We saw in pre-season he tried his preferred tactics and realised they weren't going to work with the current squad. We then saw in the first three games that he tried to turn the 343 into an all-out attack and realised we weren't scoring goals, so then he switched to PLAN C and tightened us up at the back to compensate. Working on his THIRD option, we were maintaining champions league form until players who had been defending well all season stopped doing so, and we lost our most creative midfielder to injury, and our most creative attacker to injury, and then Saiss and Boly started making those howlers.

OF COURSE ultimately we can say the responsibility for the poor run of form must lie with the head coach. But then, the same responsibility must be given to him for the GOOD runs of form and that, as it stands, the season as a whole has us in a very creditable and promising 8th place. If that drops down to 9th..still a good season. If we drop out of the top ten, then okay, it's much less impressive.

On balance though, he came into a club who had just finished 13th, he wasn't backed in the market, and he got a tune for most of the season out of a team that is two years overdue a refresh. He's done a good job -provisionally, because I'm willing to lower that if we drop out of the top ten (i.e., if the evidence changes.) He's earned the chance to carry out the refresh and see what the club can do with his preferred system and with players he's chosen.

(EDITED TO CORRECT LAST SEASON'S LEAGUE FINISH, BECAUSE APPARENTLY, THAT IS VITAL FOR MY CREDIBILITY RATING ON EQUIFAX.)

 

[WickedWolfie]

Saiss and Boly -two of our most experienced players- have made howlers in the last poor run of games that have contributed to us losing points. What options does Lage have there, and are they good ones? He could have played Totti. Chose not to. So okay, we can judge him based on that choice. Our best defender of the season - Kilman- is out injured. That's not a Lage choice, though we do have to credit him with giving Kilman the game time in the first place. And Boly wasn't getting game time during our best run of form. We don't know why -fitness or tactics- so we can't judge whether to credit Lage for that or not. We can't ignore that Saiss and Boly are players whom our head coach should be able to expect better from.

The season seems to have turned on that Leeds game. We can't blame Lage for the red card. Take that out of the game and we would have strolled to a win. Can we blame Lage for the collapse after the red card? It's probably fair to lay a portion of that blame on him, since it's his job to organize the players and have contingency plans. But, again, we can't overlook that there were players on the pitch making stupid decisions that Lage should be able to expect them not to make.

Can we blame Lage for Burnely and Brighton? I think it's fair to question him over those games. The team didn't seem motivated or organized. The latter is 100% Lage's job. The former...I would say the same as with the individual errors, I think we should ALL have the expectation that high-earning premier league players with a shot at Europe have a responsibility to motivate themselves.

And while we're handing out credit or blame, we can't overlook the tactical idea that got us points against Chelsea and Norwich. This hybrid 3/4 at the back approach with Jonny providing cover while the team gets forward. Lage deserved credit for those decisions, and also equally blame for taking the same approach against City. But if we're handing out blame for dropping points to City lets also remember Bruno's plan almost got us a draw against them earlier in the season and, as with the Leeds red card, he can't be blamed for a ref AND VAR inventing a handball to give a penalty.

If we're taking the season as a whole, then a team who finished 15th last season, and didn't invest in the summer, and lost key players to injury, are (currently) 8th. There are at least 10 clubs who would happily trade seasons with us. The couple immediately behind us...remains to be seen. But we are finishing higher than last season with arguably fewer squad options. I don't see how that is anything other than a credit to Lage.

We saw in pre-season he tried his preferred tactics and realised they weren't going to work with the current squad. We then saw in the first three games that he tried to turn the 343 into an all-out attack and realised we were'nt scoring goals, so then he switched to PLAN C and tightened us up at the back to compensate. Working on his THIRD option, we were maintaining champions league form until players who had been defending well all season stopped doing so, and we lost our most creative midfielder to injury, and our most creative attacker to injury, and then Saiss and Boly started making those howlers.

OF COURSE ultimately we can say the responsibility for the poor run of form must lie with the head coach. But then, the same responsibility must be given to him for the GOOD runs of form and that, as it stands, the season as a whole has us in a very creditable and promising 8th place. If that drops down to 9th..still a good season. If we drop out of the top ten, then okay, it's much less impressive.

On balance though, he came into a club who had just finished 15th, he wasn't backed in the market, and he got a tune for most of the season out of a team that is two years overdue a refresh. He's done a good job -provisionally, because I'm willing to lower that if we drop out of the top ten (i.e., if the evidence changes.) He's earned the chance to carry out the refresh and see what the club can do with his preferred system and with players he's chosen.

Twice you erroneously say that we finished 15th last season. Doesn't do a lot for your credibility.

premier league table 20/21 season - Google Search

www.google.com

 

[Wolves in Limerick]

Players aren't capable/Players don't want to/players don't want to play for the manager/manager doesn't trust the players.

Managers have to earn the respect of those who work for them. That means that where someone isn't capable you re-assign him until he can prove he is capable, you don't persist letting the lad persist game after game, after game. This appears to be Bruno's attitude to Hwang. Maybe in time he will be a splendid player and servant for the club but his form this season would not suggest his name should be the first on the team sheet. Persisting with this undermines the confidence of your other players particularly when they know better players are available or are on loan to Sheffield United.

There is no understanding between the players - they're all just watching to see what happens on the rare occasions we go forward. It's like a bunch of strangers, yet they train together every day. It's bizarre. You get absolutely no sense that there is anything remotely resembling a game plan.

This is down to the manager. The players are being prepared for these games by him. They are following the instructions he is giving them. Such instructions/tactics should be clear to them then there is confusion and a loss of confidence both in the manager and in the players themselves. The further we have progressed from Nuno's period as manager the more the quality of the team performance has deteriorated. This suggests that Bruno isn't up to the job. The performance over the last two months or so have been those of a club struggling against relegation. The team is going to have to undergo rebuilding during the close season. Frankly Bruno does not inspire my confidence. I want a team that is credible and that works for one another and that shows potential for the future. I want to go to Molineux and expect that the team will perform and fight for each other. That seems to be beyond the management skillset of Bruno Lage.

 

[JayStringer]

Twice you erroneously say that we finished 15th last season. Doesn't do a lot for your credibility.

premier league table 20/21 season - Google Search

www.google.com

Fair enough, 13th. I'm not all that fussed what your red pen thinks of my credibility unless you engage with the substance of my post.

 

[Jamwolf]

Bruno quoted in E&S - " I think we should have one more central defender and one more striker."

Is the club contractually bound not to say that we need another midfielder, or three? Lage is already talking about Neves going so it's hardly going to weaken our hand.

We have lost all momentum - manager, players, ground development. It would be a huge shame if Fosun ultimately leave us in the same shape as when they bought us. Over to them.

 

[old wittonian]

Maybe it's the system and not the players. I think we have enough quality and plenty of them could play in a different formation. I don't see how people can say he needs squad of his players because no manager gets that. It's something that evolves over time so you work with what you have.

If we were to play a back 4 who would you play there if everyone was available.

 

[old wittonian]

If the owner of a restaurant keeps employing unexperienced chefs, then, you can't blame the chefs for not serving up top quality food, blame the owners of the restaurant.
If the owner of the restaurant, then employs kitchen porters to take the place of pastry chefs, you will lose a lot of business, for trying to do things on the cheap.
Venga, Nuno and Bruno all follow a pattern of being implementers, taken what they are given and being thankful for coaching a Premier League club. None of them had CV's to take us to the top, and they would take the wages and the players that they were given.
I would still back Fosun, as they have given us top half of the PL. Fosun look at us, like they look at their managers, we were a championship club and would be grateful for being an established
PL club.
We got lucky with Nuno. I would love Fosun to push on, but I prefer being a top half PL team, than playing Oldham on a Tuesday night.

If we were to play Oldham we would be in trouble. They're National league bound are they not.

 

[old wittonian]

This COVID affected us under Nuno is pretty puzzling as COVID affected every club.

Our first 3 games this season saw a fresh and dynamic style but without a point. I think Bruno looked at what he has and their abilities and attitudes and reverted back to type to get points on the board.

He has made mistakes but I'd sort of expect that first season. We need change, massively.

How much of this dip is due to Bruno/fallouts in the camp/players knowing they're on the way out is anybody's guess but it is alarming. It does feel at times that he's been polishing a turd.

I'd love to see Bruno build something special here but I'm concerned we'll end up with a side of the quality of Hwang.

Must agree that Hwang's signing and regular appearances is puzzling.

 

[Mugwump]

If we were to play a back 4 who would you play there if everyone was available.

I think Jonny, Semedo and Ait Nouri are all fine for fullback. If we are talking center halves its hard to say really until they get a run of games to see how capable they are there. Pretty much every single player who's been involved regularly we have only ever seen in a back 3. We can of course speculate who would be able to manage it, but you just never know until they get thrown in there.

To help us evolve as i was alluding to, we really should have signed a proven back 4 center half then used the pre season to see who looked best alongside him.

 

[Mugwump]

This COVID affected us under Nuno is pretty puzzling as COVID affected every club.

Our first 3 games this season saw a fresh and dynamic style but without a point. I think Bruno looked at what he has and their abilities and attitudes and reverted back to type to get points on the board.

He has made mistakes but I'd sort of expect that first season. We need change, massively.

How much of this dip is due to Bruno/fallouts in the camp/players knowing they're on the way out is anybody's guess but it is alarming. It does feel at times that he's been polishing a turd.

I'd love to see Bruno build something special here but I'm concerned we'll end up with a side of the quality of Hwang.

Covid did affect every club. Not saying we were hit any worse than anyone else, but i certainly think we suffered really with it all on the back of a delayed, long season in 2019/20 then going into the 2020/21 season with very little break. We were just drained as a club mentally and physically. There is no doubt, as was the case with every club, it hit some people harder than others. I think Nuno was hit pretty badly with it on more than just a football level and not just his family. He seemed to be very affected by the way just people in general were suffering, and i think thats why he donated such a huge amount of money to charity.

 

[WKFWolf]

May have already been mentioned so apologies if so:

Regardless of opinion either way wasn't it mentioned that Nuno was let go due to concerns about performances and tactics in lieu of how we'd look to foreign audiences who we are trying to market to (may have been the Chinese in particular)

Surely that's now an issue with Bruno, regardless of which side of the fence you are on