Bruno Lage

[thommo1984]

It stems from our recruitment policy:
Money has only really been pumped into attackers (Neto, Podence, Silva, Jimenez, Cutrone, Jota, Adama).

When we've signed central defenders, we've signed cast-offs who have specific attributes that fit the system:
Boly, Roderick, Bennett, - poor concentration and reading the game doesn't really affect him in the back 5 as he's got a spare man either side that can cover.
Same goes for Coadys lack of physicality that only seems to be a problem if he's either got a striker man marking him (Mitrovic, Pukki) or if the defensive line is sat higher than the edge of our box.

We've then used this template to penny pinch and convert other players to centre backs (Dendoncker, Saiss) where the negative attributes they possess don't particularly hinder them when they've got men either side that can cover for their lack of pace, physicality in the tackle, and defensive positioning.

It's left us with a squad of defenders who can't really defend - they do a serviceable job only by defending in numbers, including with the midfield, and restricting the opposition to poor quality chances.

If anything changes with that defensive line, the whole structure is compromised - play a higher line? Lack of pace kills us. Players can't form an effective offside trap because they don't have confidence that they can catch any striker who runs in behind.

Reduce it by a person? Lack of concentration or physicality leads to a plethora of chances ceded to the opposition (see any of the games we played a 4 last season, WBA games are a good point for how **** we are at defending in a four).

So we're wedded to this deep back five where there's an expectation on the midfield 2/3 to come back and defend as a solid unit consisting of 7/8 blockers.

When our midfield do have the ball, they've all got the same negative attributes - complete lack of mobility, can't move with the ball, so they're restricted to passing only, which is frequently from a deep area within our own half. Which makes us ridiculously easy to play against. Any of our midfielders get the ball, we know what they're doing, none of them are moving with the ball, they're just going to either pass it back or down the wing, that's it.

A couple of silly examples from recent games, in the first, Neves receives the ball, there's plenty of space to drive in to and progress the entire team up the pitch, we've got players ahead of him who are offering for the ball, but he chooses to turn and play a nothing pass to Saiss. In the second, the ball breaks to Neves near the edge of the box, we've got players and space ahead to drive into and the attack slows right down and ends up with Boly at the back.

Part of me genuinely thinks the players are that knackered they don't fancy the sprint to get back into position if they lose the ball so they play it safe.

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Often the midfield hide and don't show for the ball, and the players are just stood there throwing their hands about with no options for a pass, or you've just got Coady waving his hands half the pitch away screaming for the ball so the players make the safe choice and pass it back to him

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If you're Bruno, how do you solve this with the players you have at your disposal? The three midfielders we have at this club are never going to suddenly start moving the ball past players, so we're just stuck repeating the same patterns of play until we get fresh legs in.


TLDR:
The players neither have the ability or confidence to play any other way than safety first.

All of those photos have broken me a bit, my word lads

 

[Fifty Niner]

And that's the thing. For all the vitriol he gets he's not the guy who is letting the players run behind him. At some point the players have to hold their hand up and say "it was my fault". Our defence since Kilman got injured cannot play a higher line without being exposed by the runner in behind. We have 3 fit CB's. You can only play who you have and currently 2 of them are too slow for a higher line.
The manager knows this, but his hands are tied. The only way round it is play a deeper line of 5, and the midfielders protecting them.
Then you have zero threat going forward as defence/midfield are so far away from the forward line. Our counter attacking ship sailed when Jota and Doc left, Traore was given away for a couple of marlies, Neto isn't fit, and Raul sadly isn't the player of old. Fabio, Trincao and Hwang aren't even at the party. So we have a raw Chiquinho as our only threat up top.

Some really valid points here.

 

[old wittonian]

Interesting that Lage analysis a game really well. Post match yesterday he acknowledged his frustration at the spaces the team allowed the opposition and why a four at the back would be difficult for them. Perhaps the team aren’t listening or perhaps he is more the no.2 who helps a manager see the game better.

I recall after Villa away be gave an excellent analysis of what was going wrong and how he changed it.

 

[WalsallWolf]

Different manager same problems.

I think that will continue too if we go ahead and sack Lage.

The actual core management of the club needs addressing. What is our chairman actually doing? What is the plan? What and where is recruitment?

 

[Coleshill Wolf]

Apologies if I am repeating anything but I'm disillusioned and therefore have not read a lot of the posts on here about Bruno.

Good points...
He comes cheap.
Occasionally gets things right with his ideas - Villa home Manure away.

But that's it...

The players don't seem (Imho) to be playing for him. Maybe I'm reading too much into it because of the love they had for Nuno but I'm not sure.

The biggest issue I have aside from the quality of football is that he continually picks or plays guys out of form.

Examples of this being Hwang and
Raul - some may argue Fabio not good enough but how will we ever know if he isn't given more than the token 20 mins.

chiquhinho... Gets MOM after a 20 minute cameo, gets MOM after playing in his wrong position next game... His reward... Dropped, comes on as a winger at HT and does more in 5/10 mins than the rest of the team does in the whole of the first half... His reward... Moved to wing back to accommodate Podence ... It's laughable.

What's the answer?? I honestly don't know...

In an ideal world, you keep Neves, get rid of 6/7 players and bring in 4/5 top signings... Who and where from... I don't know

For me, it's been the best few years in my lifetime and I don't want to lose that, but there's no room for sentiment...

Personally I'd keep Sa, Kilman, Jonny, Semedo, Toti, Neves, Neto & Chiquinho providing Jonny gets back to full fitness.

Raul - big dilemma - keep if he shows something pre-season but potentially sell if a decent offer comes in.

May be in the minority but I'd have Adama back in a heartbeat, he will be on fire trying to get a big contract somewhere.

Back ups would be Coady AitNouri Podence, Mosquera, Giles and possibly MGW if he shows something pre-season.

Fabio and Cundle out on loan playing first team football for a year in the Championship.

Love Boly and I even have a soft spot for Donk but they can go along with Saiss Hoever Ruddy Marcal.

Moutinho... Love him to bits but would only keep if he happy to be a bit part player with some coaching thrown in.

Let's remember that this was probably our best ever chance of getting European football again possiblity even Champ League with everyone between us and Top 3 having up and down seasons.

In a way I understand Fosun being cautious, we have just gotten over UEFA sanctions and have brought unwisely in the past but you either trust a manager or you don't.

With 3 big signings in January we'd have possibly been 5th is my opinion but we'll never know. The big issue now is that teams around us will also improve and even Everton, if they stay up, will spend big.

Oh well... Back to work to earn more money to help fund pre-season in America... Are we mugs??? I think so sometimes, but I enjoy it in a perverse kind of way nonetheless....

 

[1972 i began]

Watching him on the touch line first half, I have to strongly disagree. His demeanour matched that of the team on the pitch. Head in hands, flat, shrug of the shoulders. He was not motivational in the slightest. He was like Nuno in the final season, not like Nuno in the years before the pandemic.

That's because they ay listening to him,and it's bin the same for the last 2 months.We all know Bruno ay bothered how he talks to them.He tells the truth and some dow like it.It wouldn't surprise me after the Leeds defeat that he went in all guns blazing and told a few they wouldn't be here next season.So they gave up altogether.

 

[old wittonian]

Some really valid points here.

dragrace makes some excellent points. Offers an analysis not just shouting Bruno out

 

[1972 i began]

The players aren't good enough to play attacking, ball dominant pressing football. When Nuno tried to change to 4 to be more attacking we conceded goals for fun.

So you agree it's the players then,and NOT Bruno.

 

[thommo1984]

I think he’s done well at a much smaller club. Like his brand of football and style and would like to see what he could do.

Yep, exactly this. Brighton are below us, sure. But even with their limited squad/budget they have a clear identity, playing fast, incisive, good quality football with the aim of outscoring the opposition – everything we've not been since those first 3 games. Sure, it doesn't always work but they have a plan and they're incredibly well-drilled/organised.

 

[Superted]

Apologies if I am repeating anything but I'm disillusioned and therefore have not read a lot of the posts on here about Bruno.

Good points...
He comes cheap.
Occasionally gets things right with his ideas - Villa home Manure away.

But that's it...

The players don't seem (Imho) to be playing for him. Maybe I'm reading too much into it because of the love they had for Nuno but I'm not sure.

The biggest issue I have aside from the quality of football is that he continually picks or plays guys out of form.

Examples of this being Hwang and
Raul - some may argue Fabio not good enough but how will we ever know if he isn't given more than the token 20 mins.

chiquhinho... Gets MOM after a 20 minute cameo, gets MOM after playing in his wrong position next game... His reward... Dropped, comes on as a winger at HT and does more in 5/10 mins than the rest of the team does in the whole of the first half... His reward... Moved to wing back to accommodate Podence ... It's laughable.

What's the answer?? I honestly don't know...

In an ideal world, you keep Neves, get rid of 6/7 players and bring in 4/5 top signings... Who and where from... I don't know

For me, it's been the best few years in my lifetime and I don't want to lose that, but there's no room for sentiment...

Personally I'd keep Sa, Kilman, Jonny, Semedo, Toti, Neves, Neto & Chiquinho providing Jonny gets back to full fitness.

May be in the minority but I'd have Adama back in a heartbeat, he will be on fire trying to get a big contract somewhere.

Back ups would be Coady AitNouri Podence, Mosquera, Giles and possibly MGW if he shows something pre-season.

Fabio and Cundle out on loan playing first team football for a year in the Championship.

Love Boly and I even have a soft spot for Donk but they can go along with Saiss Hoever Ruddy Marcal.

Moutinho... Love him to bits but would only keep if he happy to be a bit part player with some coaching thrown in.

Let's remember that this was probably our best ever chance of getting European football again possiblity even Champ League with everyone between us and Top 3 having up and down seasons.

In a way I understand Fosun being cautious, we have just gotten over UEFA sanctions and have brought unwisely in the past but you either trust a manager or you don't.

With 3 big signings in January we'd have possibly been 5th is my opinion but we'll never know. The big issue now is that teams around us will also improve and even Everton, if they stay up, will spend big.

Oh well... Back to work to earn more money to help fund pre-season in America... Are we mugs??? I think so sometimes, but I enjoy it in a perverse kind of way nonetheless....

This is all a bit contradictory.

You complain about Bruno's quality of football and that he plays guys out of form but then suggest he's good enough to have got 5th or even Champions League with 3 big signings.

You suggest that Fosun have bought "unwisely" in the past and this is related to trust in the manager but should the fact that the board seemed reluctant to invest in the squad be held against Bruno when we know he's been asking for players all season?

 

[Black Country Wanderer]

Yep, exactly this. Brighton are below us, sure. But even with their limited squad/budget they have a clear identity, playing fast, incisive, good quality football with the aim of outscoring the opposition – everything we've not been since those first 3 games. Sure, it doesn't always work but they have a plan and they're incredibly well-drilled/organised.

They can still finish above us yet

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

dragrace makes some excellent points. Offers an analysis not just shouting Bruno out

Thank you. Although we are all frustrated with the situation we all have to have a balanced argument on it. Just shouting for the managers head without taking into account everything just creates a slanging match imo.
But in saying that i understand why some people insist we change the manager based on the last couple of months performances. Something has clearly happened behind the scenes since the Leeds game, but i don't think it's one clear cut thing. It's more a perfect storm of things happening which we are not privvy to.

 

[thommo1984]

They can still finish above us yet

So they're below us then

 

[Coleshill Wolf]

This is all a bit contradictory.

You complain about Bruno's quality of football and that he plays guys out of form but then suggest he's good enough to have got 5th or even Champions League with 3 big signings.

You suggest that Fosun have bought "unwisely" in the past and this is related to trust in the manager but should the fact that the board seemed reluctant to invest in the squad be held against Bruno when we know he's been asking for players all season?

It may well be... Like I said I don't know what the answers are... Something changed, whether it is the players not playing for him in the second half of the season or him being found out I really don't know.

I honestly believe the team were not far away because the league (outside of the top 3) was weaker than in previous years... But next year we won't get that luxury. So whilst he may have got us over the line this season, I cannot see it going forward...

The straw that broke the camel's back for me was continuously playing Hwang.

If he stays, I hope I'm proven wrong because all I want is to see us play well and get into the Champions League...

 

[sc91]

Bruno to me is in the same boat as Rangnick is at United. He's a head coach, given players and essentially told to try and get them to play a style and a way. The players haven't brought into what he wants doing, so it's just through the motions and essentially creating a hugely negative dressing room.

Yes, some of the players are going, yes, some are not good enough for the football that Bruno ideally wants, but overall some of them will still be here come next season, and if none of them have brought into what Bruno demands (the lack of effort, lack of runs, poor motivation and general negative attitude shows to me this), then it's far better off to remove him and try and get a manager who can demand more respect and work ethic from his players.

Always remember listening to the much maligned O'Hara, and like it or loathe it, this is a man who's been in a dressing room just like that, and I do think he had a point with regards to players downing tools when they know the manager has no power and commands no respect, when they know that manager will be gone before they are.

 

[Zico]

Yep, exactly this. Brighton are below us, sure. But even with their limited squad/budget they have a clear identity, playing fast, incisive, good quality football with the aim of outscoring the opposition – everything we've not been since those first 3 games. Sure, it doesn't always work but they have a plan and they're incredibly well-drilled/organised.

They've only scored two more than us!!

 

[thommo1984]

They've only scored two more than us!!

Hence why I said "it doesn't always work". Have you seen the players he's working with?

 

[Summer_Wolf]

Different manager same problems.

I think that will continue too if we go ahead and sack Lage.

The actual core management of the club needs addressing. What is our chairman actually doing? What is the plan? What and where is recruitment?

Agreed on Lage - the same problems will exist regardless unless there asre sweeping changes to the squad. However, the plan appears to be to spend no money and do the bare minimum to stay up. As for what Shi is doing, it appears he's more bothered about the brand than the actual football. Fosun have had zero interest on the football side of the club for a few years now, hence the neglect in the squad over such a long period of time, leading us to today with a massive rebuild on our hands and having one window to do it. If they truly were interested in the football side, they'd have replaced Thelwell properly with a proper director of football, not an underqualified academy coach, surrounded by yes men who'll just do what Jeff says.

 

[Peszkywolf]

Hence why I said "it doesn't always work". Have you seen the players he's working with?

So potter= next big manager, probably future Arsenal/Spurs/Utd manager.
Lage= useless, done nothing, no style.

Lages first season, how many years has Potter been at Brighton? Not sure on both club's net spend but we haven't spent a tonne on defenders. Both clubs lack a striker who can actually now score goals.

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

So potter= next big manager, probably future Arsenal/Spurs/Utd manager.
Lage= useless, done nothing, no style.

Lages first season, how many years has Potter been at Brighton? Not sure on both club's net spend but we haven't spent a tonne on defenders. Both clubs lack a striker who can actually now score goals.

In the last 3 years we've spend 500k on defenders. Kilman. Toti was at Grasshoppers, all the other have been here for 5 years plus.

 

[SteveBullsKnee]

In the last 3 years we've spend 500k on defenders. Kilman. Toti was at Grasshoppers, all the other have been here for 5 years plus.

Ait Nouri and Semedo?

 

[Fenrir_]

So potter= next big manager, probably future Arsenal/Spurs/Utd manager.
Lage= useless, done nothing, no style.

Lages first season, how many years has Potter been at Brighton? Not sure on both club's net spend but we haven't spent a tonne on defenders. Both clubs lack a striker who can actually now score goals.

Potter instantly changed Brighton's style, and stuck with it which meant they had something to build on. Their results have gradually improved over the time he's been there. Lage started a style and abandoned it after a month, you can't build on that

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

Ait Nouri and Semedo?

I should have said CB's. My £47m mistake..

 

[Zico]

Potter instantly changed Brighton's style, and stuck with it which meant they had something to build on. Their results have gradually improved over the time he's been there. Lage started a style and abandoned it after a month, you can't build on that

So all those who criticise the lack of goals would be happy with someone who's produced no better return despite being there longer. Okay.

 

[Jawwfc]

So all those who criticise the lack of goals would be happy with someone who's produced no better return despite being there longer. Okay.

I've never quite got the hype around potter did well abroad, did okay nothing more at Swansea, has done well at Brighton nothing spectacular just well.

He also had a 6 game losing streak this season and an 11 game winless run this season

 

[Newportwolf]

I've never quite got the hype around potter did well abroad, did okay nothing more at Swansea, has done well at Brighton nothing spectacular just well.

He also had a 6 game losing streak this season and an 11 game winless run this season

Agreed…..I visit their fans forum regularly due to family connections and during this time the majority on there were calling for Potter out……but now he is the English Version of Koop!…….unbelievably I would say they are even more fickle than our lot!!

 

[JohnB]

For me a terrible end to a season where we have overachieved thanks to Jose Sa (and Kilman).

What is worrying for me is the lack of identity and what appears (from the outside) to be something badly wrong between the players and manager. Is it change team or change manager (or both)?

With a positive end to season would have felt very different. After a dreadful run of form and performance I remain worried that we are losing our best players with a management and ownership team who will try to do the right thing but with some real risks.

I won’t judge now but this feels like the biggest Summer.

Who will leave - could be 10 players - Ruddy, Marcal, Saiss, Moutinho, Neves, Donck, Raul plus Vinagre, Jonny, Cutrone, Podence….

….a major overhaul and does Lage have ability to design and drill a new approach into team and also build a strong team spirit?

Who knows….a big Summer and hopefully a positive.

All I do know is “refresh” and “MolMix” are going to be heavily viewed over the coming weeks.

 

[Zico]

I've never quite got the hype around potter did well abroad, did okay nothing more at Swansea, has done well at Brighton nothing spectacular just well.

He also had a 6 game losing streak this season and an 11 game winless run this season

Which would have had most on here calling for his head. I wouldn't necessarily be unhappy of Bruno was replaced if there was a stand out candidate to take his place. No way is Potter that candidate.

 

[GateWolf]

In my view this summer is as Important as 2013 when Kenny Jackett was appointed, he reconnected the fans with the club and sorted out the problems we could all see but had been left untouched .

we can not mess up this transfer window, if we do , we will be looking at a relegation scrap full on and what worries me is that I dont see that much fight or desire in the players.

First, Fosun have to decide urgently if Bruno is the man, if so back him financially,
unless they are 200% sure they have the right man, then they have to rip it up and start again, we have to go all in and unified, there can no be no doubts within the Wolves hierarchy about the manager.

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

In my view this summer is as Important as 2013 when Kenny Jackett was appointed, he reconnected the fans with the club and sorted out the problems we could all see but had been left untouched .

we can not mess up this transfer window, if we do , we will be looking at a relegation scrap full on and what worries me is that I dont see that much fight or desire in the players.

First, Fosun have to decide urgently if Bruno is the man, if so back him financially,
unless they are 200% sure they have the right man, then they have to rip it up and start again, we have to go all in and unified, there can no be no doubts within the Wolves hierarchy about the manager.

I'm in that camp on the latter. If they think he's the man back him 100%, or if not get in a replacement. And it needs to be decided a week on Monday in reality.

 

[NewarkWolf]

You can question formations and styles all day long but one thing that was clear yesterday is that some have dropped off their desire and work levels. The attitude of Toti was head and shoulders above anyone else in the line up, yes I appreciate he wanted to make an impact for his own good going forward but if another 4-5 had shown his level of determination we would have made life a lot harder for Norwich.

Can Bruno gee the players up to give their all or has something gone off that has made them all drop a gear or two? Who knows but it was a sad site seeing us make Pukki look like Karim Benzema! Once again our midfield look like they were chasing shadows to begin with and without Semedo on the right our 3/5 at the back offers no real attacking threat down that side, jonny is great once he's up and around the box but moving the ball up into those areas it's easy to play against him, for the level of defending we were going to come up against I'd have gone with Chiquinho to give them a problem. Hey go.

 

[Hot Fuss]

The Richard Stearman of football management, pashun

Haha kicking the post after every **** up

 

[WWFC4EVA]

I've never seen a team of players who are so reluctant to get beyond the player with the ball. Don't know whether it's a coaching thing or something that the players are subconsciously doing without realising???
Anyway, I've not been the biggest advocate of Bruno but it's 100% time to back him or sack him, if it's the former, then he will get my support going forward, as will any replacement, should he leave.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

So you agree it's the players then,and NOT Bruno.

Two things can be bad at once...
I am open to an upgrade, not sure I massively see one. I am wary of Lopetegui

 

[old wittonian]

For me a terrible end to a season where we have overachieved thanks to Jose Sa (and Kilman).

What is worrying for me is the lack of identity and what appears (from the outside) to be something badly wrong between the players and manager. Is it change team or change manager (or both)?

With a positive end to season would have felt very different. After a dreadful run of form and performance I remain worried that we are losing our best players with a management and ownership team who will try to do the right thing but with some real risks.

I won’t judge now but this feels like the biggest Summer.

Who will leave - could be 10 players - Ruddy, Marcal, Saiss, Moutinho, Neves, Donck, Raul plus Vinagre, Jonny, Cutrone, Podence….

….a major overhaul and does Lage have ability to design and drill a new approach into team and also build a strong team spirit?

Who knows….a big Summer and hopefully a positive.

All I do know is “refresh” and “MolMix” are going to be heavily viewed over the coming weeks.

Read on another site that Saiss has been offered a one year deal but is holding out for 2 years.

 

[WWFC4EVA]

Read on another site that Saiss has been offered a one year desk but is holding out for 2 years.

Spoke to him yesterday and he seemed very down to be leaving, certainly not his usual smiling and bubbly self. I'd personally give him a 2 year deal, in my opinion he still has a lot to offer and is a very valuable squad member, I do realise that others will have different opinions though.

 

[Deleted member drgr12429]

Spoke to him yesterday and he seemed very down to be leaving, certainly not his usual smiling and bubbly self. I'd personally give him a 2 year deal, in my opinion he still has a lot to offer and is a very valuable squad member, I do realise that others will have different opinions though.

Surely worth a 2 year deal. We have to have squad players otherwise we'll be in the same small squad problem we have now!
He is in the top ten of defenders in the PL!

 

[WWFC4EVA]

Surely worth a 2 year deal. We have to have squad players otherwise we'll be in the same small squad problem we have now!
He is in the top ten of defenders in the PL!

I absolutely love the fella, so I need no convincing, my friend. The guy has never given anything less than his all for our club. I agree there is no room for sentiment in the game but if Saiss doesn't warrant an agreeable contract for all parties, nobody does!

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Wouldn't keep him personally, no room for sentiment and good time to move out some wages and bring in some fresh faces.

 

[WWFC4EVA]

Wouldn't keep him personally, no room for sentiment and good time to move out some wages and bring in some fresh faces.

I totally respect your opinion and agree some fresh faces are required, as things have gone a little stale.