4-3-3

[JohnB]

Not meant to be a debate of 4 vs 3/5 but just to help me understand how we would line up in a 4-3-3 when we attack and when we defend.

Anyone able to help me out?

Specifically with a 4-2-3-1 I can see 4 at back with WBs deep when defending but able to push forward when attacking, Neves and Moutinho (or Donk) sitting in the 2 and 3 up top behind Raul.

For a 4-3-3 how would we construct the midfield? 3 across with Neves at defensive pivot but where would Moutinho go? Would 3 up top be wide or narrow and would we expect 1 or 2 of midfield to join attack?

Thanks!

 

[OLDGOLD]

I think that is exactly the issue John. If Neves is the deep midfield player, how does that suit the other midfielders? I am not sure it suits Moutinho, but maybe it might work with Cundle, a Donk or Ronan?
I suppose in some games you could play 2 deep midfielders and say MGW furthest forward.
Not sure either of these work really which I think is why people think of a 4231.....

 

[Lea77]

The midfield 3 would potentially be Gibbs-White, Neves & Moutinho. Podence & Neto either side of Raul. Gibbs-White would go into the 10 & Podence & Neto would drop slightly back

 

[Derbywolf85]

Something like this (don’t read in to Coady not being there, it’s just an example).

Aware that Chiquinho has been included and Hwang left out but that’s because Chiquinho with and ACL is better than a fully fit Hwang.

 

[Minimalist]

View attachment 28936

Something like this (don’t read in to Coady not being there, it’s just an example).

Aware that Chiquinho has been included and Hwang left out but that’s because Chiquinho with and ACL is better than a fully fit Hwang.

Personally I’d just call that 4231.

I generally think off 433 as having one central holding midfielder plus two slightly more advanced central midfielders.
Sometimes one of the wider midfielders can be even more attacking so you have a defensive midfielder, centre mid and an attacking one. But if it’s the central one that is attacking and two wide ones holding it’s pretty much 4231.

I suppose one of the advantages of 433 is the flexibility within it. Though it can lack width.

 

[Minimalist]

The midfield 3 would potentially be Gibbs-White, Neves & Moutinho. Podence & Neto either side of Raul. Gibbs-White would go into the 10 & Podence & Neto would drop slightly back

I suspect it would be far too gung-ho to have mgw in the midfield in a 433. He’d probably play in the front 3.
Might get away with it in the 352.

 

[Derbywolf85]

Personally I’d just call that 4231.

I generally think off 433 as having one central holding midfielder plus two slightly more advanced central midfielders.
Sometimes one of the wider midfielders can be even more attacking so you have a defensive midfielder, centre mid and an attacking one. But if it’s the central one that is attacking and two wide ones holding it’s pretty much 4231.

I suppose one of the advantages of 433 is the flexibility within it. Though it can lack width.

Which is where your full backs get involved.

See Bruno’s Benfica team, for an example.

 

[Minimalist]

Which is where your full backs get involved.

See Bruno’s Benfica team, for an example.

You have to have the very best players to play 433 AND send your fullbacks up high, really not sure we could do that.

Bruno’s Benfica team was 442 with 2 holding midfielders I think? So a little bit different to the 433 with overlapping fullbacks.

 

[JOSWolf]

Really hope we are going 4 at the back now. I really feel 5 at the back has run its course and a change in approach is needed. The lack of goals was awful the last 2 seasons with the defence and midfield sat too deep and numerous games when we were losing still sat with 3 centre backs in our own half.

 

[JayStringer]

There are a lot of different ways a 433 can work and it all boils down to the midfield. Essentially for us, is it a V with one holding player and two pressing players, is it the opposite with one pressing player and two holding? There are also questions about who provides width -is the midfield 3 wide or compact?

What I like about 433 is the flexibillity, it can look like two or three different formations depending on whether or not we have the ball.

What I believe is that Bruno wants a deep 6 in the middle. A V with a 6 and two 8’s.

When we are in possession the 6 can drop back between the centrebacks to look like a back 3, giving the fullbacks license to become wingbacks and push up into a 343. In a transitional phase the 6 can be a DM that helps trigger a press. And in defense he can then patrol ahead of the back four providing an extra line of cover. The 6 would be a crucial player in this formation. Someone you trust with a reading of the game.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

There are a lot of different ways a 433 can work and it all boils down to the midfield. Essentially for us, is it a V with one holding player and two pressing players, is it the opposite with one pressing player and two holding? There are also questions about who provides width -is the midfield 3 wide or compact?

What I like about 433 is the flexibillity, it can look like two or three different formations depending on whether or not we have the ball.

What I believe is that Bruno wants a deep 6 in the middle. A V with a 6 and two 8’s.

When we are in possession the 6 can drop back between the centrebacks to look like a back 3, giving the fullbacks license to become wingbacks and push up into a 343. In a transitional phase the 6 can be a DM that helps trigger a press. And in defense he can then patrol ahead of the back four providing an extra line of cover. The 6 would be a crucial player in this formation. Someone you trust with a reading of the game.

Surely neves is the 6 with his distribution

 

[SquaddieWolf]

View attachment 28936

Something like this (don’t read in to Coady not being there, it’s just an example).

Aware that Chiquinho has been included and Hwang left out but that’s because Chiquinho with and ACL is better than a fully fit Hwang.

Good job you put on there about leaving Coady out just been an example, otherwise by now it would be all over Twitter that he has no place and we are selling him.

 

[Derbywolf85]

Good job you put on there about leaving Coady out just been an example, otherwise by now it would be all over Twitter that he has no place and we are selling him.

Only added it so his fangirl club on here didn’t come after me.

WhErEs CoAdY?!?

 

[JohnB]

Maybe the answer was seen tonight and 4-3-3 was actually more of a 4-1-2-3? Certainly when attacking it felt like the 2 WBs were pushing wide, with Neves sitting back and 2 CBs pulling out wide and 2 inside forwards. Early days and transition risks but could be exciting when on front foot.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Need another midfielder but it would work well with MGW, Neves and some athleticism in there. Joao then on for Morgan later to manage the game. Or on for Podence and push Morgan up where he'd be better cover still

 

[Dan G WWFC]

Maybe the answer was seen tonight and 4-3-3 was actually more of a 4-1-2-3? Certainly when attacking it felt like the 2 WBs were pushing wide, with Neves sitting back and 2 CBs pulling out wide and 2 inside forwards. Early days and transition risks but could be exciting when on front foot.

433 is normally played like that nowadays, with the middle CM playing between the midfield and defense.


Also I noticed our fullbacks not only underlapped at times but also played inverted and allowed out midfield to play even higher up the pitch.

Should allow us to press higher up the pitch and should suit a few players in our team more then our old formation

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

One thing is for sure based on tonight, we need to have some faith in Bruno and he needs to stick to it when it gets tough

He has already implemented a clear complete change in style of play. Impressive

 

[AlexWolvesHD]

So do we think this 433 is how we will play or a 4231 where donk is replaced by podence who plays ahead of ruben and joao?

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

So do we think this 433 is how we will play or a 4231 where donk is replaced by podence who plays ahead of ruben and joao?

Has to be the latter

 

[OLDGOLD]

One thing is for sure based on tonight, we need to have some faith in Bruno and he needs to stick to it when it gets tough

He has already implemented a clear complete change in style of play. Impressive

Not sure I saw the complete change in style tbh. Still too much farting about in our third until we were 2 nil up and got a bit bolder....mind you, I suppose that in itself is a change!

 

[Tring Wolf]

So do we think this 433 is how we will play or a 4231 where donk is replaced by podence who plays ahead of ruben and joao?

If it’s going to be 4-3-3, we’re going to need to bring in two quality midfielders.

 

[GV Wolf]

This thread is already irritating me. People are getting too neurotic whether it will be 433 or 4231.
433 easily changes into 4231 which easily changes into 442. It’s all very flexible.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

This thread is already irritating me. People are getting too neurotic whether it will be 433 or 4231.
433 easily changes into 4231 which easily changes into 442. It’s all very flexible.

I think the debate is whether dendoncker plays or podence .

For me, there isn’t a debate

Mgw can drop deeper if needed and be flexible like you say

 

[Monketron]

I think the debate is whether dendoncker plays or podence .

For me, there isn’t a debate

Mgw can drop deeper if needed and be flexible like you say

Against better teams we can't go too gung ho and I expect Donck will play plenty even if we stick to a back 4 in those games.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

Against better teams we can't go too gung ho and I expect Donck will play plenty even if we stick to a back 4 in those games.

Back 3 is the way to go against the better sides . Teams like spurs can’t cope with us when we play it

 

[WalsallWolf]

I dont want to bring negativity to the plate, but the issue for me is as a team we still at times tonight look "programmed" almost to play the safe, easy, low percentage pass. I think when bodies are forward too which they was in these instances, teams will punish us.

I dont think it is tactical either. Footballers play by instincts and they will always revert to type. Lage on the sidelines was absolutely going berserk too. Literally barking to get out, play faster, play forward. We saw this many times too last season.

I think it all comes back to one thing. This is still Nuno's team. Collins is a step in the right direction and to a degree I would include Kilman and Sa in that, they are both completely different profiles to what we had before - but we primarily need a spine of new players to implement the new approach.

We need to back Bruno. He hasnt requested new players for a soundbite.

 

[Glass ankles]

This thread is already irritating me. People are getting too neurotic whether it will be 433 or 4231.
433 easily changes into 4231 which easily changes into 442. It’s all very flexible.

 

[greenwolf1301]

To be honest I still think we should be 3 at the back, as no top team changes between 3 at the back and 2 it's one or the other all season as the midfield and defence won't cope well with the change which will lead to misjointed performances. Collins is a good buy but needs a season to settle into our team so for me it's Cody and kilman or 3 with collins and boly rotating. We can't play 3 in midfield with 3 midfielders either one injury and cundle or ronan won't cut it for a prolonged period. But I will change my opinion if we play this formation and get a similar score against besiktas and sporting.

 

[Oh When the Wolves]

I dont want to bring negativity to the plate, but the issue for me is as a team we still at times tonight look "programmed" almost to play the safe, easy, low percentage pass. I think when bodies are forward too which they was in these instances, teams will punish us.

I dont think it is tactical either. Footballers play by instincts and they will always revert to type. Lage on the sidelines was absolutely going berserk too. Literally barking to get out, play faster, play forward. We saw this many times too last season.

I think it all comes back to one thing. This is still Nuno's team. Collins is a step in the right direction and to a degree I would include Kilman and Sa in that, they are both completely different profiles to what we had before - but we primarily need a spine of new players to implement the new approach.

We need to back Bruno. He hasnt requested new players for a soundbite.

It’s a CM we need to take 3 steps forward on the ball.

The worry with this system is trans simply mark neves to stop us.

This midfield signing is absolutely critical

Moving the ball faster, one touch, is essential too at those times we want to play

 

[Dan G WWFC]

So do we think this 433 is how we will play or a 4231 where donk is replaced by podence who plays ahead of ruben and joao?

I think it all depends on the game. I think the 433 we looked better

 

[AndyY]

@

To be honest I still think we should be 3 at the back, as no top team changes between 3 at the back and 2 it's one or the other all season as the midfield and defence won't cope well with the change which will lead to misjointed performances. Collins is a good buy but needs a season to settle into our team so for me it's Cody and kilman or 3 with collins and boly rotating. We can't play 3 in midfield with 3 midfielders either one injury and cundle or ronan won't cut it for a prolonged period. But I will change my opinion if we play this formation and get a similar score against besiktas and sporting.

I tend to agree; if we go 4 at the back we can’t play Neves and Moutinho together as DM - with 4 at the back there is far more emphasis on defending higher up the pitch, ie in midfield, and that requires very mobile midfielders which Neves and Moutinho are not. We need to play one or other of them alongside a Rice/ Phillips type and MGW as the CAM. Or Moutinho plays far higher up the pitch with a new, quick DM and MGW as one of the front 3
Some people are getting very excited about us playing 4 at the back based in pre-season friendly performances against Burnley and Aalves (sp, sorry?) but I would wager that Leeds away will be a very different kettle of fish if we don’t bring in a new, quick DM. And if we don’t I can see us reverting to 3/5 at the back like we did last season.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

@

I tend to agree; if we go 4 at the back we can’t play Neves and Moutinho together as DM - with 4 at the back there is far more emphasis on defending higher up the pitch, ie in midfield, and that requires very mobile midfielders which Neves and Moutinho are not. We need to play one or other of them alongside a Rice/ Phillips type and MGW as the CAM. Or Moutinho plays far higher up the pitch with a new, quick DM and MGW as one of the front 3
Some people are getting very excited about us playing 4 at the back based in pre-season friendly performances against Burnley and Aalves (sp, sorry?) but I would wager that Leeds away will be a very different kettle of fish if we don’t bring in a new, quick DM. And if we don’t I can see us reverting to 3/5 at the back like we did last season.

I’d put MGW in the middle with Neves & Moutinho we will need the energy

 

[Minimalist]

I don’t know why people keep going on about mgw in midfield. He’s a forward now. No more a midfielder than Neto or podence is.
He could do the role trincao/Donk did in the 352 I suppose. But mostly he is part of the front 3/4.

 

[AndyY]

Would anyone take Harry Winks as a DM for us? Not at all saying we are linked but said to be available and transfer market has him valued at £13M, swap with Traore?

 

[Chris H]

I think we’re a CM and a CF away from a very balanced squad that can play with 2 or 3 CB’s, 2 or 3 CM’s and 3 or 4 forwards.

Ideally to do that without running a bloated squad you’d want 5 CB’s, 5 CM’s, 5 forwards who play behind the striker and 2/3 CF’s.

Coady is made for the back 3 (and can potentially do a job in a 4 in games against weaker sides - let’s be honest when we play the stronger ones you’d probably go back 3 anyway).

MGW/Podence cover the 10 role and can play our wide.

Hwang can cover centrally as a 3rd CF option.

So that leaves us needing a fullback, CM and a CF. It also potentially leaves us a CB heavy currently given its a position in which 5 subs won’t really mean you’d want to carry an extra player there as you rarely change more than one CB in a match for any reason.

Alternatively, you could keep all 6 CB’s if there’s a view that Collins can cover RB and Gomes LB as 3rd options in which case it’s a CM and a CF as most have said.

You’ve then got the U21’s and some who are around the squad currently who, if they impress could be options in addition to the above this season.

The balance, with those 2 additions looks good as you’ve essentially got almost a solid 9 outfield positions and you drop in a 3rd CB, 3rd CM or a 10 down the middle of the team to suit each game like this:

GK
RB CB (Flexible) CB LB
CM (Flexible) CM
RF (Flexible) LF
CF​

Sa/Sarkic

Semedo/Jonny/Collins
Collins/Boly/Mosquera
Kilman/Boly/Gomes
RAN/Jonny/Gomes

Neves/Dendoncker
NEW/Moutinho

MGW/Traore
Neto/Hwang

Raul/NEW/Hwang

You can then almost place Coady, Ronan/Cundle (I assume one will go on loan and the other remain as 5th CM) or Podence in to that side dependant on which formation you want to play (obviously all 3 could fit in to other positions above and other players above could play instead of these, but I kept them back to specifically show what I meant).

That’s 21 outfield players with the majority you’d be comfortable to see starting in any given game in any given formation. It’s really not that bad a squad in terms of quality, balance or depth, as long as we get those 2 additions and both, especially the CM are starter quality.

I love the majority of this squad as they’ve given us the best years as a club in a long time, but I still believe after last season that the squad needed a bigger refresh than it’s had, but you can only move players on if someone wants to buy them. And if the current squad plus a couple of additions can refresh themselves this summer and go again improved next season I’m fine with that as it stands.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

If it’s going to be 4-3-3, we’re going to need to bring in two quality midfielders.

I think one is fine, with us having the ability to go back to the 2 across the middle in the 5 at the back on occasion. 1 starting quality and a youngster on a flier would be great, or perhaps Cundle/Ronan (I have huge doubts but will give him a chance obviously) can be the 5th option.

Neves
A.N Other
MGW

Moutinho/Cundle (like Joao ok in the Neves role from last night)
Donk
Podence/Neto

Must admit I love the idea of Neto/MGW being interchangeable in that position, MGW workrate last night was fantastic (was one point where we were 3-0 up and he pressed their fullback in the corner) and both have the physical tools to do the De Bruyne role where you aren't an oldschool 10 but more of the sort of power runner 10 which is the new role.

All revolves around a new sitting midfielder to form the cover aspect of the double pivot with Neves. Come on Jeff, just get the midfielder in and loan a striker.

 

[Minimalist]

Sa
Jonny Collins Killman RAN
Donk Neves Moutinho
MGW Jimenez Neto
​

I think this would be our best 433 team atm.

 

[Dan G WWFC]

Sa
Jonny Collins Killman RAN
Donk Neves Moutinho
MGW Jimenez Neto
​

I think this would be our best 433 team atm.

I think that's about it, add a back up target man striker and a midfielder that's progressive with the ball for rotation with Moutinho and Donk

 

[Stafford]

Sa
Semedo Coady Boly Jonny
Donk Neves Moutinho
MGW Jimenez Neto

for me to start at the beginning, it's very hard to choose who to play alongside Coady in a back 4. Collins, Kilman, Boly all had games of looking amazing and ropey second half of last season. Future is very much sorted though.

 

[AndyY]

Sa
Jonny Collins Killman RAN
Donk Neves Moutinho
MGW Jimenez Neto
​

I think this would be our best 433 team atm.

That may well be our best 4-3-3 line up with the current squad but still really hoping that we bring in competition for Raul and that both Donk and Moutinho are squad players with two new incomers with pace for those positions. Don’t see it, though.