Rumours from the pub

[Northampton_wolf]

Almost definites: Ruddy, Saiss, Marcal, Neves

Highly likely: Traore, Trincao

Good chance: Moutinho, Dendoncker, Boly

Possible: Raul, Podence, Giles, Sanderson

With doubts about Semedo and Kilman being ready for pre-season.

Going to take some really smart recruitment over the Summer to replace some of those.

Ruddy is definite think he posted on his insta he is gone as is marcal.

Definite - Ruddy, Marcal

Almost Definite - Saiss

Highly Likely - Traore, Trincao, Neves

 

[Rangiora Wolf]

Almost definites: Ruddy, Saiss, Marcal, Neves

Highly likely: Traore, Trincao

Good chance: Moutinho, Dendoncker, Boly

Possible: Raul, Podence, Giles, Sanderson

With doubts about Semedo and Kilman being ready for pre-season.

Going to take some really smart recruitment over the Summer to replace some of those.

It'll be semedo, kilman and a bunch of U23's then.

 

[JOSWolf]

When does wholesale change ever work?

To an extent it has at Palace, NWW.

 

[WickedWolfie]

To an extent it has at Palace, NWW.

That and Sevilla under Munchi/Lopetegui are the two positive examples l have seen (l quoted the former myself).

 

[North West Wanderer]

To an extent it has at Palace, NWW.

They finished 12th. Hardly an amazing season mate.

 

[marrs-guitar]

Wolves changed their head coach and recruited 10 new first team players in summer 2017. We went from 15th to 1st.

 

[North West Wanderer]

That and Sevilla under Munchi/Lopetegui are the two positive examples l have seen (l quoted the former myself).

Interested to hear more..........

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

When does wholesale change ever work?

Sevilla, Palace, Spurs last year (got the right manager in + Jan but still stands they had about 5/6 different starters by seasons end) I will try to dig out others.

I am not saying it isn't a gamble, and I've been against it in the past myself but people know I am a data nerd and the numbers I've dug into recently terrify me.

I believe this group of players without significant surgery would have us firmly in a relegation battle next season irrespective of the manager.

The underlying numbers in terms of chance creation, chances given up, ball progression, winning the ball back are frightening.

Worse than everyone bar Norwich and Watford. And we are actually closer to Watford than Burnley (who are above us) on xg differential. Now that doesn't mean we are the 3rd worst team in the league, or deserved to go down as it is game by game which decides that but it is frankly put terrifying.

We do nothing well as a team, especially given our defense regressed from top 12ish to very bad 2nd half of the year as Sa turned from essentially prime Buffon into a very good keeper.

Most worryingly the data matched the eye test largely, just don't understand what happened from GW4 onwards - did player power take over and they ignore him after some brilliant and promising signs? If so a massive clear out and some acolytes for him could do the trick
but he has absolutely no history of a rebuild or any real CV to hang his hat on (my immediate albeit emotional reaction when he took over).

We are slow, we move the ball slower, we don't have a player who creates chances + barely have a player who progresses the ball at a decent rate. I am going to start an analytics thread on here (please ignore it if you hate this stuff) to demonstrate what I mean.

 

[JOSWolf]

They finished 12th. Hardly an amazing season mate.

Agree mate but they were a lot better than the previous season and their style of play far better as well.

 

[North West Wanderer]

Wolves changed their head coach and recruited 10 new first team players in summer 2017. We went from 15th to 1st.

Very good. How about in the Premier League? Does anyone think recruiting 10 new players will move us forward?

Marrs - still can't believe we got them

 

[North West Wanderer]

Agree mate but they were a lot better than the previous season and their style of play far better as well.

Does style of player REALLY matter of we are successful? Or are we pining for Newcastle 1995?

 

[TheRetroChief]

Wolves changed their head coach and recruited 10 new first team players in summer 2017. We went from 15th to 1st.

Yep, that pretty much puts the "wholesale changes don't work" idea to bed really doesn't it?

 

[sc91]

Very good. How about in the Premier League? Does anyone think recruiting 10 new players will move us forward?

Marrs - still can't believe we got them

Not recruiting will see us down there. I think its a bit clear the current crop has truly run their race and a few newer heads need to prevail.

Do think we would benefit massively by getting business down now, if Wolves staff are serious we would have started sorting business within an hour of the full time whistle at Anfield.

 

[North West Wanderer]

Sevilla, Palace, Spurs last year (got the right manager in + Jan but still stands they had about 5/6 different starters by seasons end) I will try to dig out others.

I am not saying it isn't a gamble, and I've been against it in the past myself but people know I am a data nerd and the numbers I've dug into recently terrify me.

I believe this group of players without significant surgery would have us firmly in a relegation battle next season irrespective of the manager.

The underlying numbers in terms of chance creation, chances given up, ball progression, winning the ball back are frightening.

Worse than everyone bar Norwich and Watford. And we are actually closer to Watford than Burnley (who are above us) on xg differential. Now that doesn't mean we are the 3rd worst team in the league, or deserved to go down as it is game by game which decides that but it is frankly put terrifying.

nothing well as a team, especially given our defense regressed from top 12ish to very bad 2nd half of the year as Sa turned from essentially prime Buffon into a very good keeper.

Sevilla, Palace, Spurs last year (got the right manager in + Jan but still stands they had about 5/6 different starters by seasons end) I will try to dig out others.

I am not saying it isn't a gamble, and I've been against it in the past myself but people know I am a data nerd and the numbers I've dug into recently terrify me.

I believe this group of players without significant surgery would have us firmly in a relegation battle next season irrespective of the manager.

The underlying numbers in terms of chance creation, chances given up, ball progression, winning the ball back are frightening.

Worse than everyone bar Norwich and Watford. And we are actually closer to Watford than Burnley (who are above us) on xg differential. Now that doesn't mean we are the 3rd worst team in the league, or deserved to go down as it is game by game which decides that but it is frankly put terrifying.

We do nothing well as a team, especially given our defense regressed from top 12ish to very bad 2nd half of the year as Sa turned from essentially prime Buffon into a very good keeper.

Most worryingly the data matched the eye test largely, just don't understand what happened from GW4 onwards - did player power take over and they ignore him after some brilliant and promising signs? If so a massive clear out and some acolytes for him could do the trick
but he has absolutely no history of a rebuild or any real CV to hang his hat on (my immediate albeit emotional reaction when he took over).

We are slow, we move the ball slower, we don't have a player who creates chances + barely have a player who progresses the ball at a decent rate. I am going to start an analytics thread on here (please ignore it if you hate this stuff) to demonstrate what I mean.

Most worryingly the data matched the eye test largely, just don't understand what happened from GW4 onwards - did player power take over and they ignore him after some brilliant and promising signs? If so a massive clear out and some acolytes for him could do the trick
but he has absolutely no history of a rebuild or any real CV to hang his hat on (my immediate albeit emotional reaction when he took over).

We are slow, we move the ball slower, we don't have a player who creates chances + barely have a player who progresses the ball at a decent rate. I am going to start an analytics thread on here (please ignore it if you hate this stuff) to demonstrate what I mean.

interesting.
You've left out 5th best defence despite a horrific 2022 in the interest of balance.
I agree though - Lage aint the man to do it.

 

[JonahWolf]

When does wholesale change ever work?

Sevilla most seasons until last one, Palace this season. After that I’m struggling.

Edit: been beaten to both numerous times.
I’ll throw in Ajax to an extent, ten Hag had to rebuild after swathes of the CL semi team got sold off for fortunes. Haven’t hit those heights again, but have re-established domestic dominance, which wasn’t the case a few years ago.

 

[marrs-guitar]

Very good. How about in the Premier League? Does anyone think recruiting 10 new players will move us forward?

Marrs - still can't believe we got them

It would surely all depend upon the quality of those 10 new players.

If they were the same quality as Neves, Jota, et al, then yes we would improve, and dramatically so. If they are 10 new Hwangs, Trincaos and Silvas, we will probably finish rock bottom.

I don't expect we will be recruiting 10 new players in any case. Shi and Sellars will do the bare minimum to plug the holes from departures and cross their fingers. If it looks bleak, the coach will be made to carry the can.

You generally get less player churn in the Premier League because of the size of the contracts involved and the likelihood of a club letting almost all its contracts run down at the same time isn't that high. Palace were a rare exception to the rule, I think Burnley would have been in a similar position this summer had they survived.

 

[North West Wanderer]

Yep, that pretty much puts the "wholesale changes don't work" idea to bed really doesn't it?

Nope - there's a huge difference between brining in the players we did because of the help of Mendes in a lower league, to trying to improve from 20th in the hardest league in the world doing the same.

I don't think I'm being obtuse by pointing out the substantial differences.

 

[sc91]

Does style of player REALLY matter of we are successful? Or are we pining for Newcastle 1995?

Yes and no, style attracts a player in this league, now this might be inherent bias but playing negative football (as wolves often do) is far more draining than on the front foot and 'positive'. I am a firm believer that alot of our plans are simply worn down after two seasons of having a handbrake on. We didn't enjoy it as supporters, imagine playing it.

 

[North West Wanderer]

It would surely all depend upon the quality of those 10 new players.

If they were the same quality as Neves, Jota, et al, then yes we would improve, and dramatically so. If they are 10 new Hwangs, Trincaos and Silvas, we will probably finish rock bottom.

I don't expect we will be recruiting 10 new players in any case. Shi and Sellars will do the bare minimum to plug the holes from departures and cross their fingers. If it looks bleak, the coach will be made to carry the can.

Absolutely and how likely is that is my point.

 

[North West Wanderer]

Yes and no, style attracts a player in this league, now this might be inherent bias but playing negative football (as wolves often do) is far more draining than on the front foot and 'positive'. I am a firm believer that alot of our plans are simply worn down after two seasons of having a handbrake on. We didn't enjoy it as supporters, imagine playing it.

What do you think the solution is?

 

[Elvis Wolf]

Not recruiting will see us down there. I think its a bit clear the current crop has truly run their race and a few newer heads need to prevail.

Do think we would benefit massively by getting business down now, if Wolves staff are serious we would have started sorting business within an hour of the full time whistle at Anfield.

With respect sc91, how do we know that they didn't?

 

[Ian]

Does style of player REALLY matter of we are successful? Or are we pining for Newcastle 1995?

No, results are the main thing, give me 1-0 home wins and 0-0 draws away and a cabinet full of trophy's over entertainment....
BUT we have neither!

As for so many players wanting away from a team thats finished 10th in the best league in the world you have to ask why?...
Money? Style of play? Lack of trophy's? .... the Coach?

 

[Wolfman jack]

you can sell a new exciting funded project vision to good and rated players. From our position now, its less easy. Our recruitment has to be spot on.

 

[Mile End Wanderer]

Let them all go that don’t want to be at Wolves I’m excited to see a new team and a new system

We got Neto and 10 others we will be a proud club

 

[sc91]

What do you think the solution is?

First point would be the manager, my acid test on him was that he failed already, if he was truly the long term individual then we would have seen something to indicate a style going forward in the final games of the season, to see who is up to snuff and what areas he believes should be improved, instead at best, it was going through the motions. So replace the coach, immediately.

Depending on the coach, he would set about looking through all our games this year (akin to Nuno, correct me if I am wrong), target the areas of weakness, target the areas of strength and then suggest and build the squad from there, ideally this squad should be (in the most) settled and ready for half way between the pre season. Key component is backing is required, Shi needs to have faith in a manager, I don't think he has that in Lage, but Lopetigui? Might be that man.

We need a plan, an identity that unifies the team, Palace under Vieira had that, it was a sum of its parts and arguably did extremely well given the position they found themselves in at this time last year.

So yes, first call, the guy who's coaching needs to be sorted.

 

[sc91]

With respect sc91, how do we know that they didn't?

We don't, just saying that I'd hope they would have done.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Interested to hear more..........

Posted it up thread mate, in 8/9 new starters in 10 odd out and won the Europa League.

Mind you there recruitment included Ocampos (who bossed us) in Quarter imo, Kounde who Chelsea bid £60M for, En-Nesyri who is a really good player, Luuk De Jong who is a decent enough target man who moved to Barca, Regullion on loan, Diego Carlos who I think Newcastle are after (albeit he definitely has a big rick in him and is a penalty machine but also a dominant 1v1 defender if that makes sense).

They signed a few duds as well, ironically the ones who cost a bit more mostly.

If we could sign a group of people this summer, Sevilla's recruitment lot would be right up there. Lille's as well.

 

[TheRetroChief]

Nope - there's a huge difference between brining in the players we did because of the help of Mendes in a lower league, to trying to improve from 20th in the hardest league in the world doing the same.

I don't think I'm being obtuse by pointing out the substantial differences.

But....it's a wholesale change.....that worked!? Easier to do, yes.

 

[North West Wanderer]

But....it's a wholesale change.....that worked!? Easier to do, yes.

I do wholesale changes on FM every year and it works!! Employ me!

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

nothing well as a team, especially given our defense regressed from top 12ish to very bad 2nd half of the year as Sa turned from essentially prime Buffon into a very good keeper.

interesting.
You've left out 5th best defence despite a horrific 2022 in the interest of balance.
I agree though - Lage aint the man to do it.

It wasn't the 5th best defence without the keeper though, that is my point - we conceded about 10 goals less than we should have vs the chances we gave up - that isn't sustainable.

Can the keeper play at a 2nd best in Europe level for the rest of his career? Maybe. Should we rely on it ? No.

 

[Deleted member 8455jwf]

Nope - there's a huge difference between brining in the players we did because of the help of Mendes in a lower league, to trying to improve from 20th in the hardest league in the world doing the same.

I don't think I'm being obtuse by pointing out the substantial differences.

Valid point.

My overarching point is it is for sure a risk, but staying put is also a risk. Just as humans we all fall into the "better the devil you know" naturally.

 

[TheRetroChief]

When does wholesale change ever work?

I don't think I'm being obtuse by pointing out the substantial differences.

I do wholesale changes on FM every year and it works!! Employ me!

I'm not really sure what your point is? You asked when do wholesale changes ever work?
You've been given examples where they patently do. Then you move the goalposts. Pretty sure you actually are being obtuse!

Anyway...have we lost anyone else yet?

 

[Shergar]

Rumours from the pub..

Trincao has asked for full surround mirrors and a hairdryer to be fitted in the gender neutral ****ter.
could he be staying?

 

[TheRetroChief]

Rumours from the pub..

Trincao has asked for full surround mirrors and a hairdryer to be fitted in the gender neutral ****ter.
could he be staying?

Think he's been hanging round with Silva for too long by the sounds of it

 

[The Clock]

Overheard in the Bentlands celebrating the Under 23 win:

Jeff: So we now have two teams in Premier League! (Smiles)

Scott: Errrm….

Jeff: And all under 23 years old! (Smiles)

Scott: Errm….

Jeff: And don’t cost much money!

Scott: That’s true….

Jeff: Guo will be very happy! (Smiles)

Scott: Errm…

Jeff: We will get big bonuses (smiles)

Scott: (smiles)

Jeff: It’s your round.

 

[wolvesjoe]

Sevilla, Palace, Spurs last year (got the right manager in + Jan but still stands they had about 5/6 different starters by seasons end) I will try to dig out others.

I am not saying it isn't a gamble, and I've been against it in the past myself but people know I am a data nerd and the numbers I've dug into recently terrify me.

I believe this group of players without significant surgery would have us firmly in a relegation battle next season irrespective of the manager.

The underlying numbers in terms of chance creation, chances given up, ball progression, winning the ball back are frightening.

Worse than everyone bar Norwich and Watford. And we are actually closer to Watford than Burnley (who are above us) on xg differential. Now that doesn't mean we are the 3rd worst team in the league, or deserved to go down as it is game by game which decides that but it is frankly put terrifying.

We do nothing well as a team, especially given our defense regressed from top 12ish to very bad 2nd half of the year as Sa turned from essentially prime Buffon into a very good keeper.

Most worryingly the data matched the eye test largely, just don't understand what happened from GW4 onwards - did player power take over and they ignore him after some brilliant and promising signs? If so a massive clear out and some acolytes for him could do the trick
but he has absolutely no history of a rebuild or any real CV to hang his hat on (my immediate albeit emotional reaction when he took over).

We are slow, we move the ball slower, we don't have a player who creates chances + barely have a player who progresses the ball at a decent rate. I am going to start an analytics thread on here (please ignore it if you hate this stuff) to demonstrate what I mean.

Lets get some facts on the table then.

https://www.footballwebpages.co.uk/wolverhampton-wanderers/league-table/date/20220123

With only 14 games of the season to go, Wolves were in 7th place, six points behind Mutd, but with two games in hand. We were tightly grouped with Arsenal, West Ham and Spurs. To be in this position was an outstanding achievement, especially considering that the first 3 games were lost so narrowly. The record over those 21 games was W12 D4 L5, ( 3 of the defeats were 1-0 fiercely contested games against bg 6 teams. ). Goals for 23, against 15.

Again an outstanding achievement, to be close to 2 points a game over such an extended period. The figures also show that it was Wolves' defensive strength, which allowed for such a high % of points based on a relatively modest goal scoring total.

But that is a key part of how a good team will challenge the established elite, as Leicester have shown in several seasons.

So rather than making grand analytical statements, that are based on rejecting the achievements of this season and its actual potential, look more closely at the player and tactical issues that disrupted that potential. The loss of Adama, in my view, will figure highly, as will injuries to Podence and Neves, two of our most essential players. We were treading a fine line in terms of the balance between defence and attack, and those losses, without strengthening the squad in January, go a long way to explaining our dreadful run-in.

The Premier is an incredibly demanding league and these small errors/deficiencies will be ruthlessly found out. As happened.

 

[jrpb-3]

Yep, that pretty much puts the "wholesale changes don't work" idea to bed really doesn't it?

Much more difficult and costly to do the same now though. From where we were then, not long back from league 1, finding players who were better than what we had and at a reasonable price was not too difficult. That said we did well in getting them all to gel into a team and start performing pretty much from the off. From where we are now the pool of players better that what we have now is a lot smaller and the clubs we will be competing with to get them are also better and also have larger amounts of money available.

We need player of the right quality and the right fit for the team squad, so will be a balance, the more players you look to bring in the less money you have for each individual player. Depending on how may end up leaving as well I would say what is need is quality over quantity

If we could do what we did then and bring in a good set of new players at the right level and get them working together quickly then fantastic, but not an easy task

 

[Shergar]

Wolves changed their head coach and recruited 10 new first team players in summer 2017. We went from 15th to 1st.

Don’t forget that the Nuno also brought in a minibus full of support staff.

 

[WickedWolfie]

Wolves changed their head coach and recruited 10 new first team players in summer 2017. We went from 15th to 1st.

True but look at the league we were in and the quality that we signed... We couldn't sign players with that big a margin of additional capability now. Firstly because l'm not sure in many cases they exist. Secondly if they do we probably could neither afford them nor would we be their destination of choice.

 

[TheRetroChief]

True but look at the league we were in and the quality that we signed... We couldn't sign players with that big a margin of additional capability now. Firstly because l'm not sure in many cases they exist. Secondly if they do we probably could neither afford them nor would we be their destination of choice.

No-one said it would be easy. But the point is that wholesale changes CAN work, that's all

I have [ahem] absolute faith in Sellers, Shi and the [cough-cough] recruitment team to continue doing a sterling job and deliver a sensational summer of change and recruitment! Onwards and Upwards [gag]