The Gulf Between Us (Blues and Wolves)

[Jonzy54]

I also don't buy into the view that 'We don't want to do a Leeds' Just because you spend doesn't mean that you couldn't recoup your money if you actually went down.You can still stick to your principles of buying youngish but experienced players but in splashing the cash you can attract better players ala Dann and Johnson to name but two.
Such players would still have a re-saleable value and give you a better chance of staying up.If Blues had gone down does everyone assume that Blues wouldn't have got their money back?Such players(and Doyle) will still have re-saleable value because they have proved themselves to be good players at this level.
Leeds bought a number of players who were in the twilight of their careers(a bit like Jones when we went up) who had little or no re sale value and as such were content to sit on their hands for the remainder of their contracts because they knew they were unlikely to move to play at a decent level again.
The choice was ours and we have made the wrong one.Come this May last May will probably seem like a pipe dream.

[big-blue-wolf]

Originally Posted by Jonzy54

Leeds bought a number of players who were in the twilight of their careers(a bit like Jones when we went up) who had little or no re sale value and as such were content to sit on their hands for the remainder of their contracts because they knew they were unlikely to move to play at a decent level again.

That's exactly what I meant when I made the point about Leeds earlier in the thread. I wasn't necessarily talking about how much they spent but how buying the wrong players screwed them up.

[PeteWolf]

Leeds didn't buy the wrong players, they had one of the youngest squads in the league at the time. Robinson, Smith, Kewell, Ferdinand, Keane, Bowyer, Harte, Bridges, Mills and Woodgate were all 24 or under when they got to the Champions League semi-final and finished 4th. Even Viduka was only 26.

Their problem was that they took too big a risk by basing their entire financial projections around finishing in the Champions League spots. No one is suggesting we do that, but we have the financial clout and position to compete with at least half of this league, yet refuse to do so with artificial salary caps and Moxey trying too much to be Jez Moxey and squeeze every last halfpenny out of each deal.

[Chiswick_Wolf]

It will be very interesting reading our annual accounts for this season (although I don't think we see the results for almost another two) to see just what state the club are in financially. On the one hand no one wants huge debt that the likes of Portsmouth and Hull have but then we don't want the club to be rolling in money yet none of it going into the right areas. As someone brilliantly put it on a thread a few weeks ago: "there isn't going to be an open top bus tour with Moxey proudly waving our Balance Sheet around should we be in a good financial position but ultimately relegated".

[Jonzy54]

Originally Posted by PeteWolf

Leeds didn't buy the wrong players, they had one of the youngest squads in the league at the time. Robinson, Smith, Kewell, Ferdinand, Keane, Bowyer, Harte, Bridges, Mills and Woodgate were all 24 or under when they got to the Champions League semi-final and finished 4th. Even Viduka was only 26.

Their problem was that they took too big a risk by basing their entire financial projections around finishing in the Champions League spots. No one is suggesting we do that, but we have the financial clout and position to compete with at least half of this league, yet refuse to do so with artificial salary caps and Moxey trying too much to be Jez Moxey and squeeze every last halfpenny out of each deal.

You are right about their squad when they were in the PL but having sold a lot of the better players when they went down they paid big wages to a lot of older players in the view that they would take them back up.Instead they went the other way.

[OCD Wolf]

Originally Posted by Chiswick_Wolf

As someone brilliantly put it on a thread a few weeks ago: "there isn't going to be an open top bus tour with Moxey proudly waving our Balance Sheet around should we be in a good financial position but ultimately relegated".

Cynically, one might think Moxey's bonus isn't based on our league position...

[Atlas 1951]

Originally Posted by Big Saft Kid

No, you got it in one. Too complicated for Moxey mind.

Yes, a couple of quid and everything would have been all right.

Dann was on the phone to his agent having already agreed terms. $$$$ him.

Johnson went to Man City, apparently for a lower bid than Wolves offered. (More Jezspeak, according to the cynics, but then they have an answer for everything). How much money would we realistically have had to offer the lad for him to turn down a shot at the Champions League?

Perhaps we should cut off some racehorses heads and place them under strategic bedcovers?

[Big Saft Kid]

Originally Posted by Atlas 1951

Yes, a couple of quid and everything would have been all right.

Dann was on the phone to his agent having already agreed terms. $$$$ him.

Johnson went to Man City, apparently for a lower bid than Wolves offered. (More Jezspeak, according to the cynics, but then they have an answer for everything). How much money would we realistically have had to offer the lad for him to turn down a shot at the Champions League?

Perhaps we should cut off some racehorses heads and place them under strategic bedcovers?

OCD said 'the likes of Dann'. We don't know exactly who the club bid for,how much was bid, and who was on MM's list, except occasionally when people outide the club blow the gaff, as has just happened with Moses and Clyne. The bottom line is that, since we knew we would be promoted (back end of April), our team-building plans have been so successful that we have filled the club with squad fillers, not quality, apart from Doyle. "We will not do an Albion" -- quote from your very own Jez. "We will spend what it takes" (or some such) -- quote from Morgan. Sheer $$$$ing moonshine and spin. Or complete and utter incompetence; or both.

[MNwolvesfan]

GingerChimp wrote:

[QUOTE][Why oh why is this a shock?

We are not a proper Premier League outfit. We haven't been a consistent power house club (i.e. top half of the top division) for decades. Decades!!! We don't pay big wages (even when we did, comparatively, we attracted the wrong sort of player), we aren't fashionable, we don't win trophies, we're not a media darling.

Our club naturally sits (IMO) somewhere between 18th and 27th on the league ladder - and 18/19/20 in the Premier League is at the top end (the very top end) of (my) expectations.

How can anyone who has followed this club realisically expect us to be anything other than an up and down club? If we go back down and stay down for a few seasons all we've done is return to our proper level./QUOTE]

Sad but true. The sooner this is accepted by all the better. Fact is that without 'free' money from an owner with no expectation of a reasonable ROI (which we don't have) you need a combination of skillful management and a healthy slice of luck to successfully make the transition from the Championship to the Premier League at the first attempt (which this season is for us). We haven't in all truth really had either and so that makes our return to the CCC seem pretty assured at this point. For all sorts of reasons the Jan transfer window is an abomination (even more so this year) with it being an exclusively sellers market, and we shouldnt be surprised that very little business was done.

I personally have never understood the bile spilled in Moxey's direction. He works under the financial constraints imposed by the board and presumably attempts to sign players identified by the manager. If the former is too restrictive and the latter either unrealistic or errant how is he to blame??

The entire structure of football is facing an implosion. I, for one, would prefer to see the club I have followed for almost 50 years still be standing after that occurs (no matter what level they are playing at) than see them destroyed in the coming apocalypse.

[Atlas 1951]

Originally Posted by Big Saft Kid

OCD said 'the likes of Dann'. We don't know exactly who the club bid for,how much was bid, and who was on MM's list, except occasionally when people outide the club blow the gaff, as has just happened with Moses and Clyne. The bottom line is that, since we knew we would be promoted (back end of April), our team-building plans have been so successful that we have filled the club with squad fillers, not quality, apart from Doyle. "We will not do an Albion" -- quote from your very own Jez. "We will spend what it takes" (or some such) -- quote from Morgan. Sheer $$$$ing moonshine and spin. Or complete and utter incompetence; or both.

I wouldn't argue that the club hasn't failed in the transfer market, just that layman's explanations of what should have been done by an experienced and well-paid CEO are inevitably going to be simplistic.

Which players are encompassed by the term "the likes of Dann and Johnson" if not Dann and Johnson themselves (plus some others)?

I personally think we would have spent more money than we did if players had wanted to come to us, and we had to revert to lesser targets when they didn't. That doesn't mean to say I don't blame Jez: he's paid a fortune for his supposed know-how, and he has failed to persuade anybody worthwhile to join the club, and spunked a relative fortune on Halford. But no amount of money would have got us Johnson, and we obviously offered the right price for Dann and then got guzzumped by a club without our fiscal priorities. Should we have begun by offering Dann ten thousand a week more than we did so he wouldn't listen to other offers? Is that how the premiership transfer market works?

[Wednesbury Wolf]

The buck stops with Morgan, Moxey and MM are simply employees who do what they're told.We didn't spend a single penny in the transfer window all the excuses in the world can't change that.

We didn't spend and for that reason and others we will be relegated.

Morgan hasn't exactly been the shining knight has he,when we're down I hope he does the decent thing and sells to somebody with more ambition.

[Big Saft Kid]

Originally Posted by Wednesbury Wolf

The buck stops with Morgan, Moxey and MM are simply employees who do what they're told.

Yes and no. Who really knows? I can't believe that Morgan has the time or football knowledge to micro-manage Wolves' dealings in the transfer market. I guess he tells the club how much it can spend in global terms, and lets his CEO and manager get on with it. I would say that, if as seems likely, we go down, Morgan will want some answers as to why we seem to have spent about 18 million in the transfer market since August and have, bar Doyle, very little real quality to show for it. If the answers aren't satisfactory I would expect heads to roll... and my guess is that Moxey's will be first on the block.

[Big Saft Kid]

Originally Posted by Atlas 1951

Should we have begun by offering Dann ten thousand a week more than we did so he wouldn't listen to other offers? Is that how the premiership transfer market works?

Your guess is as good as mine. Why did Doyle come, but not Dann? Did Moxey tell Mick in August 'We'll break the bank for one player, but not for two or three; now which one is it to be?' I don't know and neither do you, but for all we know he might have said exactly that. The top and bottom of it is we have again filled the club with journeymen. I was watching Everton on Sky the other day and they brought Arteta on. According to the comms, he cost them 2.5 mill. Isn't that what we paid for the poor-man's Rory de Lapp, Greg Halford? Somebody at Molineux needs their head examined. Jesus wept!

[Westport Wolf]

I agree with several above. You CAN still pay the transfer fees and higher wages without breaking the bank. You just have to know your limits. We seem to have been afraid to take even the smallest risk. I said in a previous thread that I don't believe Moxey and Morgan are cut out for the football industry. They may well be excellent business men, but not particularly good football business men. Our inability to speculate in the summer and again last month has left us in no fit state to accumulate the points needed and the pounds for staying up and establishing ourselves as a Premier league club, albeit a bottom half club. Moxey's pre-season words ring so incredibly hollow now and Morgan's silence is deafening.

[Westport Wolf]

Originally Posted by Big Saft Kid

Yes and no. Who really knows? I can't believe that Morgan has the time or football knowledge to micro-manage Wolves' dealings in the transfer market. I guess he tells the club how much it can spend in global terms, and lets his CEO and manager get on with it. I would say that, if as seems likely, we go down, Morgan will want some answers as to why we seem to have spent about 18 million in the transfer market since August and have, bar Doyle, very little real quality to show for it. If the answers aren't satisfactory I would expect heads to roll... and my guess is that Moxey's will be first on the block.

As much as we dislike the woman (and her hubby for that matter) I'd take Karen Brady as CEO any day of the week. Obviously, she'd never come having worked for the kray twins for the last 15 years or so. However, she's done a great job at blues with their two promotions. She seems to understand the football business and determindly gets what she wants. I'd say she's know fool when it comes to players' agents and doesn't take any $$$$ from other clubs. If we need a new CEO in the next 12 months, we certainly need one in her mould.

[FLEET WOLF]

Originally Posted by Big Saft Kid

Yes and no. Who really knows? I can't believe that Morgan has the time or football knowledge to micro-manage Wolves' dealings in the transfer market. I guess he tells the club how much it can spend in global terms, and lets his CEO and manager get on with it. I would say that, if as seems likely, we go down, Morgan will want some answers as to why we seem to have spent about 18 million in the transfer market since August and have, bar Doyle, very little real quality to show for it. If the answers aren't satisfactory I would expect heads to roll... and my guess is that Moxey's will be first on the block.

Yes, I think you are correct, Moxey could go and perhaps Mick will stay!

[MonkeySpanner]

Wolves are cheap and have learned nothing from their last trip to the Premiership. In my opinion they have always had their eye on been relegated and the safety of the parachute payments. Apart from Doyle look who've we bought, all players that are Championship material and that's it!

I'm actually very surprised that Morgan has allowed us to miss out on the two or three quality signings we needed to give us the chance of survival. We will get close to fifty million by staying up this season and even if relegated we would still have enough from the parachute payments to cover our signings.

Being in the Premiership is everything for the fans and the club. I live in the States and hardly anybody knew who Wolves were 08/09 season, now those who follow the football over here DO know who they are. That's what it's about, that's where your future fan base comes from, that's where the money comes from. By not spending that thirty million this season has cost Wolves that many times over with relegation.

Morgan, Moxey, you are to blame for this. I'm not saying that Mick is the greatest manager but if Wolves had speculated better on players Mick wanted we would be looking a lot better of now.

If you had asked any Yank who follows English football last year who Hull were or who Wolves were, which team do you think they would of answered with?

[FLEET WOLF]

Originally Posted by MonkeySpanner

Wolves are cheap and have learned nothing from their last trip to the Premiership. In my opinion they have always had their eye on been relegated and the safety of the parachute payments. Apart from Doyle look who've we bought, all players that are Championship material and that's it!

I'm actually very surprised that Morgan has allowed us to miss out on the two or three quality signings we needed to give us the chance of survival. We will get close to fifty million by staying up this season and even if relegated we would still have enough from the parachute payments to cover our signings.

Being in the Premiership is everything for the fans and the club. I live in the States and hardly anybody knew who Wolves were 08/09 season, now those who follow the football over here DO know who they are. That's what it's about, that's where your future fan base comes from, that's where the money comes from. By not spending that thirty million this season has cost Wolves that many times over with relegation.

Morgan, Moxey, you are to blame for this. I'm not saying that Mick is the greatest manager but if Wolves had speculated better on players Mick wanted we would be looking a lot better of now.

If you had asked any Yank who follows English football last year who Hull were or who Wolves were, which team do you think they would of answered with?

You should send that to the Club! Exactly the right way of looking at it.

[FLEET WOLF]

Morgan has probably still got his eye on buying Liverpool and I am not joking.

[Big Saft Kid]

Originally Posted by FLEET WOLF

Morgan has probably still got his eye on buying Liverpool and I am not joking.

Interesting thought. If he is a life-long Liverpool fan, he's a real turn coat to have said what he did last May. Could you as a Wolves fan have said that, however much money you had? Now things look like they may go tits-up at Liverpool with bickering owners and mounting debts, it makes you wonder what his present game-plan is. Cut his losses at Wolves and go for the big prize he's always wanted? He'd have to flog Wolves first... The complete silence is slightly worrying.

[Space Wolf]

Originally Posted by Big Saft Kid

Interesting thought. If he is a life-long Liverpool fan, he's a real turn coat to have said what he did last May. Could you as a Wolves fan have said that, however much money you had? Now things look like they may go tits-up at Liverpool with bickering owners and mounting debts, it makes you wonder what his present game-plan is. Cut his losses at Wolves and go for the big prize he's always wanted? He'd have to flog Wolves first... The complete silence is slightly worrying.

Which makes it even more bizarre. Say he is looking to flog us eventually. He'll have a lot more success if we're a Premier League club.

[MonkeySpanner]

Continuing this "conspiracy" theory! LOL...Morgan makes his money mainly from building! By developing hotels etc. around the ground under a different company from Wolves would mean that should he eventually sell Wolves his real investmant would be in the "bricks and mortar" in the developements under the guise of WWFC owner!

[WolvesAreBoringOnCeefax]

For me it comes down to one key thing - Birmingham had a more experienced squad when they came up, not surprising given they've been yo-yoing for a few years. The likes of McFadden, Ridgewell, Carsley, Hart etc are all good proven Prem players and they were able to buy in Dann, Johnson, Chucho etc who had no experience but had 'older' heads around them. We didn't have that solid base and the luxury of buying players who didn't need to mature as quickly as we now need them to. Is it any surprise that Doyle, Hahnemann and Craddock have been 3 of our most solid performers and are also our most experienced in the league?

Of course we've not bought that well and sometimes the tactics are awry, but deep down I think if we had that bit more experience and cynicism from a season or two in this league we'd have picked up more points than we have so far. A bit more experience and we'd have had at least 1 point on Sunday.

[MNwolvesfan]

Wolves are cheap and have learned nothing from their last trip to the Premiership. In my opinion they have always had their eye on been relegated and the safety of the parachute payments. Apart from Doyle look who've we bought, all players that are Championship material and that's it!

I get quite tired of reading drivel like this quite honestly. Ad hominem attacks utterly unsubtantiated by fact (first and second sentence) followed by gloriously incontrovertible hindsight (second sentence).

I'm actually very surprised that Morgan has allowed us to miss out on the two or three quality signings we needed to give us the chance of survival. We will get close to fifty million by staying up this season and even if relegated we would still have enough from the parachute payments to cover our signings.

Apparently you know a great deal more about the financial operations of WWFC than any of us do, either that or you are simply spouting opinion gleaned from one of the lower forms of fishwrap. I doubt it is the former and so I will make the assumption that you actually know nothing about the financial calculus upon which this season's player personnel budget was based (or indeed have any idea what that budget is). It is my position, see previous post, that given the highly precarious financial state of football in the UK erring on the side of caution is a highly prudent course to take but is not one likely to make the fan base happy. Would you rather be Bolton or Sunderland or Wigan or Hull for example. None of them I would argue are substantially better than us currently in terms of on-the-field performance but each have massively worse debt-to-asset ratios than we do. Whilst relegation would be a very disappointing end to the season for Wolves it would not necessitate an exercise in asset stripping as it surely would for any of those clubs.

If you had asked any Yank who follows English football last year who Hull were or who Wolves were, which team do you think they would of answered with?

Your point being????? I also live in the US and my son plays football/soccer here and gets a fair bit of stick for wearing his Wolves shirt. Without fail, every single one of his teammates is a 'fan' of one of the big-four clubs. The notion that there is some financial windfall to come from selling product in the US is just laughable. Try going into a JJB in Wolverhampton the next time you are there and see how successful you are in buying a replica shirt in the clubs home town (outside of the WWFC shop). Penetrating the local market might be a good place to start!

[MonkeySpanner]

Well, let's start with Hunt! He was in talks with Wolves at the same time we were buying Doyle. He decided to go to Hull which would mean that they were willing to pay him a larger wage than Wolves were willing to pay. Hence the "cheap" approach at the start of the season. He obviously wasn't adverse to coming to us otherwise Wolves wouldn't of thought it was worth going in for him again in January. Only this time we were willing to pay a lot more for his survives and I'm sure Hull would of snapped our hand off if we had offered even sillier money.

The point about spending to stay in the Premiership and therefor building a bigger fan base and therfore making more money also means that the more established we get we can broker better team sponcership, better kit deals, better advertising etc. etc. Do you the likes of Chelsea, Villa, United travel all around the world just to get match fit during pre-season? Of course not! They do it to sell their clubs around the world and for the trickle down effect that it has.

There are those who would just like to see a nice balanced spread sheet at the end of the season and those of us who would like to see Wolves kick on an establish themselves in top flight football again.

I was in Home Depot the other day with a Wolves polo on and I got a "hey, go Wolves!" Not much but a lot more than I would of got a couple of years ago.

[glasgowwolf]

Originally Posted by MonkeySpanner

Well, let's start with Hunt! He was in talks with Wolves at the same time we were buying Doyle. He decided to go to Hull which would mean that they were willing to pay him a larger wage than Wolves were willing to pay. Hence the "cheap" approach at the start of the season. He obviously wasn't adverse to coming to us otherwise Wolves wouldn't of thought it was worth going in for him again in January. Only this time we were willing to pay a lot more for his survives and I'm sure Hull would of snapped our hand off if we had offered even sillier money.

The point about spending to stay in the Premiership and therefor building a bigger fan base and therfore making more money also means that the more established we get we can broker better team sponcership, better kit deals, better advertising etc. etc. Do you the likes of Chelsea, Villa, United travel all around the world just to get match fit during pre-season? Of course not! They do it to sell their clubs around the world and for the trickle down effect that it has.

There are those who would just like to see a nice balanced spread sheet at the end of the season and those of us who would like to see Wolves kick on an establish themselves in top flight football again.

I was in Home Depot the other day with a Wolves polo on and I got a "hey, go Wolves!" Not much but a lot more than I would of got a couple of years ago.

$$$$$$$$.....

the club have stated Mick did not buy a replacement winger for the following reasons

Kightly and Jarvis

Edwards, Keogh, Ward, Halford can all cover in those positions.

So we did not attempt to buy a wide player in he close season.

Your quote is total gob$$$$e. I believe it was stated at the parliament in respons to someone asking why we did not buy a replacement.

[Dewsburywolf]

Originally Posted by glasgowwolf

the club have stated Mick did not buy a replacement winger for the following reasons

Kightly and Jarvis

Edwards, Keogh, Ward, Halford can all cover in those positions.

So we did not attempt to buy a wide player in he close season.

And yet - perversely - we're playing Kevin Foley wide right whilst at least one of those options isn't even making the bench.

[glasgowwolf]

Originally Posted by Dewsburywolf

And yet - perversely - we're playing Kevin Foley wide right whilst at least one of those options isn't even making the bench.

Hi Jim...
If you remember when we signed Halford I was going nuts because he had failed at so many other prem clubs.

I would say he has been unlucky to lose Kights, Edwards and Keogh at the same time.
I also went nuts when SEB was bought in and Keogh left out, yet Sale et al were calling me an idiot.

[Dewsburywolf]

Originally Posted by glasgowwolf

I would say he has been unlucky to lose Kights, Edwards and Keogh at the same time.

Which is what January was for. Routledge went to Newcastle, Moses to Wigan & as far as I can recall Carlos Edwards is still at relegation (from the Championship) threatened Ipswich Town (might be injured I have no idea) to name but three possible winger signings.

[glasgowwolf]

Originally Posted by Dewsburywolf

Which is what January was for. Routledge went to Newcastle, Moses to Wigan & as far as I can recall Carlos Edwards is still at relegation (from the Championship) threatened Ipswich Town (might be injured I have no idea) to name but three possible winger signings.

Yes, and apparantly Mick was offered all of them and said he did not want them as they would not improve the team/Squad.

So Moxey said, so I have to trust Mick, so far he got us up, and we have only spent 4 weeks in the bottom 3 all season despite being shagged with Injury's If Liverpool, Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal had lost the same amount of players they would have struggled. It's easier for Arsenal and man u to lose those players far easier than us. and before some smart $$$$ comes and say's they would not get in there squad I know but it's like taking nani etc out the Utd squad.