The Gulf Between Us (Blues and Wolves)

[BlackBully]

It's so sad to see the gulf between us and Blues despite us finishing above them last season. There's no excuse for it other than terrible management of the club (ridiculous Championsip wage caps, refusal to live in the real world and compete financially for players) as opposed to their good mangement (spending the necessary to get the required players in, not quibbling over a few k here and there). I really think that's all it comes down to and who can we say's responsible for this? One man and one man only. The same man who'd learned his lessons from last time, our very own Mr Moxey. He's a terrible CEO for a football club. A bank maybe but not a football club.

With the other results this weekend we desperately needed a win but to lose, with our upcoming fixtures, I fear that we got relegated today. To be fair, we were relegated before a ball was kicked with our rubbish transfer activity in the summer. We had a small chance to redeem ourselves in the January window but terrible management (again) scuppered that. I see Gardner had a good game when he came on, another player we refused to get into a bidding war with. Despite offering £5m for Hunt!

True, MM has squandered a great deal of what he has been given but many players that he has targetted (Dann, Johnson, Hunt, Beattie, Gardner etc) have been dismissed as having too high a price on their heads or too high wages. It seems we've been refusing to live in the real footballing world. Whilst we may not agree with how things are done in the Premiership, sticking to our guns has done nothing of use.

The team we put out today played well for most of the game but that extra quality and experience told in the end. Foley isn't a right midfielder despite trying his best and we need Milijas in there but sacking MM won't change anything, probably make things worse.

The boat has already sailed I'm afraid. Sad to say it but it's true. I was angry with the midweek debacle but now I just feel deflated, apathetic almost. Resigned. The balance sheet may look healthy but the league table doesn't. How can it be that our rivals, in such a terrible financial state, are outperforming us? Maybe making lots of MONEY isn't the priority for a FOOTBALL club.

[Jonzy54]

Originally Posted by blackbully

it's so sad to see the gulf between us and blues despite us finishing above them last season. There's no excuse for it other than terrible management of the club (ridiculous championsip wage caps, refusal to live in the real world and compete financially for players) as opposed to their good mangement (spending the necessary to get the required players in, not quibbling over a few k here and there). I really think that's all it comes down to and who can we say's responsible for this? One man and one man only. The same man who'd learned his lessons from last time, our very own mr moxey. He's a terrible ceo for a football club. A bank maybe but not a football club.

With the other results this weekend we desperately needed a win but to lose, with our upcoming fixtures, i fear that we got relegated today. To be fair, we were relegated before a ball was kicked with our rubbish transfer activity in the summer. We had a small chance to redeem ourselves in the january window but terrible management (again) scuppered that. I see gardner had a good game when he came on, another player we refused to get into a bidding war with. Despite offering £5m for hunt!

True, mm has squandered a great deal of what he has been given but many players that he has targetted (dann, johnson, hunt, beattie, gardner etc) have been dismissed as having too high a price on their heads or too high wages. It seems we've been refusing to live in the real footballing world. Whilst we may not agree with how things are done in the premiership, sticking to our guns has done nothing of use.

The team we put out today played well for most of the game but that extra quality and experience told in the end. Foley isn't a right midfielder despite trying his best and we need milijas in there but sacking mm won't change anything, probably make things worse.

The boat has already sailed i'm afraid. Sad to say it but it's true. I was angry with the midweek debacle but now i just feel deflated, apathetic almost. Resigned. The balance sheet may look healthy but the league table doesn't. How can it be that our rivals, in such a terrible financial state, are outperforming us? Maybe making lots of money isn't the priority for a football club.

+1

[OCD Wolf]

Agreed. Players we identified and targetted are performing well for other clubs, not just Blues. The penny pinching, small-time mentality has cost us big time. The best way to remain financially stable is to stay up.
We have one thing that belongs in the top league, and that's Kevin Doyle. Everything else just smacks of being premier league tourists, just there for the ride and to get us 'financially secure' for the next decade in the Championship. I did think Morgan had more about him than this, but we all knew Moxey's ethos. 'We won't do an Albion!' the most hollow words I have ever heard. I wonder if Abion come up they'll decide not to 'do a Wolves'.

I am no fan real fan of MM, but I think he has been let down at board level. He made signings he did because something was better than nothing, but the wages and fees weren't sanctionned for the players he really wanted.

Someone ought to do a first XI of singnings MM wanted to make, and see how it measures up to what we have...

[NOKASPLACE]

Originally Posted by OCD Wolf

Someone ought to do a first XI of singnings MM wanted to make, and see how it measures up to what we have...

Most are at Blues

[big-blue-wolf]

Leeds.

Chase the dream and end up like Leeds or try to be realistic with wages and transfer fees.

Which is best?

[Dougal McGuire]

Originally Posted by big-blue-wolf

Leeds.

Chase the dream and end up like Leeds or try to be realistic with wages and transfer fees.

Heard a story 'bout Ridsdale today, from a guy who was 'good friends' with an agent representing Seth Johnson during his move from Derby.

They're halfway up to Elland Road discussing wages, agree to pitch at 15k pw, but would accept 12k if it came to it.

At the meeting Ridsdale gets in first offering 25k. Seth and his agent $$$$ themselves laughing only for Pete to immediately up his offer to 28k

[northnorfolkwolf]

Originally Posted by big-blue-wolf

Leeds.

Chase the dream and end up like Leeds or try to be realistic with wages and transfer fees.

Which is best?

It would have been nice to have given it a try. I believe we could have had Hunt, (with Doyle) in the summer for 2.5 mil - then offered double in January. Crazy, crazy, crazy.

[Poztin]

Originally Posted by BlackBully

Maybe making lots of MONEY isn't the priority for a FOOTBALL club.

Wolves end of year accounts for the past 2 years...

2007/2008 : £0.8m profit
2008/2009 : £4.1m loss

Football clubs rarely make money! And they shouldn't spend money that they simply don't have. The only way to sustainably pay millions in transfer fees and tens of thousands in wages is by having a super rich owner who pays for it all. We don't.

[Hatch End Wolf]

In that case, as already been said..............we're totally ****ed and will be back ion the 2nd division for another ? years.

[Barracudawolf]

Blues are doing so well becuase the kept a lot of their premiership players when they were relegated, and gambled on coming back up straight away. They've also been able to field their strongest 11 for 13ish games now, which imo is very lucky. Didn't a few players pick up their 5th booking today? I'm sure I saw the graphic on sky. Will be interesting to see how their deputies do.

[big-blue-wolf]

Originally Posted by Dougal McGuire

Heard a story 'bout Ridsdale today, from a guy who was 'good friends' with an agent representing Seth Johnson during his move from Derby.

They're halfway up to Elland Road discussing wages, agree to pitch at 15k pw, but would accept 12k if it came to it.

At the meeting Ridsdale gets in first offering 25k. Seth and his agent $$$$ themselves laughing only for Pete to immediately up his offer to 28k

Heard the same myself but the final figure for his salary was £35k.

[Mugwump]

The main difference between us and blues is know how.They have plenty of prem experience and it shows. We have capable players at this level but nobody to lead them.

[Professional]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

The main difference between us and blues is know how.They have plenty of prem experience and it shows.

It really does. We were a better Championship side than them, but they are a better Premiership side than us.

[A wanderer from Bristol]

Originally Posted by Mugwump

The main difference between us and blues is know how.They have plenty of prem experience and it shows. We have capable players at this level but nobody to lead them.

Agreed.

I know people are despondent but the gap was not very big today. Blues have been formidable for the past 3 months and beaten everyone but Chelsea in that time, yet, we had the better of the game and looked up for three points until the last 10 minutes.

It is that extra bit of know how, confidence and premiership experience that made the difference at the end. BUT we ain't done yet. I think we played well in patches, particularly in the last 20 minutes of the first half. A win on wednesday, unlikely though it might be (but not as unlikely as beating spurs away?), and the whole complexion changes.

[MK Panther]

Originally Posted by A wanderer from Bristol

Agreed.

I know people are despondent but the gap was not very big today. Blues have been formidable for the past 3 months and beaten everyone but Chelsea in that time, yet, we had the better of the game and looked up for three points until the last 10 minutes.

It is that extra bit of know how, confidence and premiership experience that made the difference at the end. BUT we ain't done yet. I think we played well in patches, particularly in the last 20 minutes of the first half. A win on wednesday, unlikely though it might be (but not as unlikely as beating spurs away?), and the whole complexion changes.

I could see only one team scoring and I could not bring myself to say blues. What I saw was a team lacking in confidence and belief.

[HazelGroveWolf]

Originally Posted by BlackBully

It's so sad to see the gulf between us and Blues despite us finishing above them last season. There's no excuse for it other than terrible management of the club (ridiculous Championsip wage caps, refusal to live in the real world and compete financially for players) as opposed to their good mangement (spending the necessary to get the required players in, not quibbling over a few k here and there). I really think that's all it comes down to and who can we say's responsible for this? One man and one man only. The same man who'd learned his lessons from last time, our very own Mr Moxey. He's a terrible CEO for a football club. A bank maybe but not a football club.

You haven't one iota of evidence to support that. Money was available, Wolves simply couldn't set deals up for one reason or another. The entire Premier League transfer market shrank 84% January to January, so it isn't just Wolves.

[BlackBully]

Originally Posted by HazelGroveWolf

You haven't one iota of evidence to support that. Money was available, Wolves simply couldn't set deals up for one reason or another. The entire Premier League transfer market shrank 84% January to January, so it isn't just Wolves.

Why did the deals not get set up then do you think? Who's responsible for this area?

Am I wrong to say Dann, Johnson and Gardner went to Blues because we wouldn't match their bids/wages? Likewise Stephen Hunt and Beattie? Am I wrong about Moxey making a statement regarding upsetting the dressing room if we broke our wage structure? After saying wages paid correlates to finishing league position (in most cases)?

What does a shrinking transfer market have to do with anything at all? This didn't stop other teams strengthening. How badly did/do we need a left back? Fox went to Burnley and performed brilliantly yesterday, even Nugent would've probably helped our cause. There are loads of players out there we could've signed but just flat refused to pay the money.

[reanswolf]

Whatever people argue, doyle aside, we have "failed" in the transfer market, failed to bring in nearly all the key targets identified.

Ok i understand the financial ethos argument, but where does that leave us? Probably relegated and Doyle will understandably eff off as well. Can't blame him at all, he gave us our chance to thrive, we failed.

[Woodsetton Wolf]

Originally Posted by big-blue-wolf

Leeds.

Chase the dream and end up like Leeds or try to be realistic with wages and transfer fees.

Which is best?

What the leeds who will be playing us in the championship next season. i know which decade i would have rather had!

[FLEET WOLF]

Originally Posted by Jonzy54

+1

I agree with a lot of that, but isn't Moxey doing what Morgan tells him to do. Perhaps the ultimate blame lies elsewhere and I sense there is going to be a bit of a backlash against our owner quite soon!

[A14 WOLF]

Exactly the same problem as when we were last promoted-we brought in players (with the exception of Doyle) no better than what we already had. Why bring in Surman, Maierhoffer, Castillo etc because they definitely have not added anything to last year's squad.
I feel so sorry for Doyle. What a thankless task of playing up front by himself every important match. Why didn't we make sure he had a quality partner brought in during the January window? We keep hearing that we tried to bring back Keane at the last minute but don't forget that the transfer window lasted for the whole of January, not just the last couple of days. To survive we had to bring in another quality striker as SEB is struggling and Iwelumo has done nothing much for over a year now.
The debacle against Palace was embarrassing-5 centre backs, a quality right back in midfield, a playmaker in midfield not suited to a battling cup tie, a young striker still learning the game played up front by himself etc. We made the likes of Hill and Derry look like stars-What a joke, a complete farce!
I do not have a moan very often but feel completely gutted this morning. I felt the Wigan match possibly meant we would be relegated, but in my opinion yesterday's loss confirmed it. Relegation in my 50th year of supporting Wolves-if only I can be proved wrong!

[Hebburn Wolves]

The transfer dealings should of been done in pre-season not January.

IMHO Wolves needed the following

One keeper which we got

one or two center backs, we got Zuber who is in the same mould imho as to Berra and Stearman all 3 young ans still learning their trade. Our back 4 does show lack of experiance

Right back thought Foley would of done a good job in the prem

Left back would of signed someone dont know who but with experiance Storey for example, im pleasantly suprise how well Ward has done in the left back position thou. Would of sold Hill.

Right wing thoiught kites would of stepped up but IMHO i dont think he has been 100% fit a big dissapointment this season.

Center midfield would of sign two players the ones we did sign are crap squad fillers. Jones is would of kept good squad player. Henry is dependable nothing special but gets the job done, would put him in a similar mould as Keith Andrews from blackburn

Left wing should of gone for Hunt in pre-season and that would of freed Jarvis/ play as cover or on the right wing.

Signed a forward we did in Doyle IMHO i bet Doyle was sold the club by the 3Ms by them saying we are going to sign this and that player. Thought SEB would of stepped up the grade but alas it just hasnt happened for the guy.


Last season we won the CCC but how did we get on against the better teams in that league i bet if you look back we struggled. that should of shown the 3 Ms that the type of players we needed. Wolves do have some good players but at the moment they arnt prem standard just fizzy pop league standard.

The money Wolves have wasted on $$$$e this season is unbelievable Milijas, Hoff, Castillo (bet there was a loan fee) and not to mention Halford.

If wolves stay up and i hope they do. Will we have the same problem that Hull had this season trying to attract players how many playeres turned them down in pre-season?

To attact the right players Wolves will have to finish around the same postion as Stoke did last season not 17th.

[Big Saft Kid]

Originally Posted by Jonzy54

+1

+100

And I'm tired of this $$$$$$ about how we should be thankful for "not doing a Leeds" or "not doing a Portsmoth", as if that were the only alternative to the niggardly approach we have employed and which will, I am now 90% sure, take us down. We have spoiled the ship for a ha'porth of tar, as they used to say. It's a completely false economy -- for want of spending a few more millions, which according to our owner we have, in the transfer market last summer and this January, we could end up spending the next half-a-dozen seasons in the CCC. Is it Moxey or is it Morgan? Either way, it adds up to a gigantic $$$$-up. Last time round was it Moxey, or was it Sir Jack? The common factor seems to be Moxey. I'll always remember the embarrassment of watching him walking around the pitch a few years back patting his fat $$$$ in an ad for the money you could save by shopping at ASDA. Sums him up. Now he even looks like Dave Brent.

[FLEET WOLF]

Originally Posted by Big Saft Kid

+100

And I'm tired of this $$$$$$ about how we should be thankful for "not doing a Leeds" or "not doing a Portsmoth", as if that were the only alternative to the niggardly approach we have employed and which will, I am now 90% sure, take us down. We have spoiled the ship for a ha'porth of tar, as they used to say. It's a completely false economy -- for want of spending a few more millions, which according to our owner we have, in the transfer market last summer and this January, we could end up spending the next half-a-dozen seasons in the CCC. Is it Moxey or is it Morgan? Either way, it adds up to a gigantic $$$$-up. Last time round was it Moxey, or was it Sir Jack? The common factor seems to be Moxey. I'll always remember the embarrassment of watching him walking around the pitch a few years back patting his fat $$$$ in an ad for the money you could save by shopping at ASDA. Sums him up. Now he even looks like Dave Brent.

As far as I am concerned, the buck stops with Morgan over all this. Mick knows his players are not good enough-I agree he has made mistakes, but they all make mistakes. Either Moxey is being allowed too much control, or this is all down to Morgan.

[Ginger Chimp]

Originally Posted by Hatch End Wolf

In that case, as already been said..............we're totally ****ed and will be back ion the 2nd division for another ? years.

Why oh why is this a shock?

We are not a proper Premier League outfit. We haven't been a consistent power house club (i.e. top half of the top division) for decades. Decades!!! We don't pay big wages (even when we did, comparatively, we attracted the wrong sort of player), we aren't fashionable, we don't win trophies, we're not a media darling.

Our club naturally sits (IMO) somewhere between 18th and 27th on the league ladder - and 18/19/20 in the Premier League is at the top end (the very top end) of (my) expectations.

How can anyone who has followed this club realisically expect us to be anything other than an up and down club? If we go back down and stay down for a few seasons all we've done is return to our proper level.

[FLEET WOLF]

Sadly, you may have a point. People will of course start to run out of patience with the Club, including, I suspect, the current owner.

[PeteWolf]

Originally Posted by big-blue-wolf

Leeds.

Chase the dream and end up like Leeds or try to be realistic with wages and transfer fees.

Which is best?

That's a frequently uttered, yet immensely stupid point to make, ditto anyone who says look at the position Portsmouth are in.

Gambling is all about knowing your limits, Leeds (and Portsmouth) didn't and the risk factor they took was way too high, but that doesn't mean you should never gamble full stop. Moxey's wage cap is the reason we're in this position,and until it's raised to a reasonable level then we can look forward to a future of mediocrity ahead for some time to come.

With the money the club could get from staying in this division, let alone the opportunity this season, then it's ridiculous to be taking the stance we are. We've got no debt to service, a supposedly rich owner, a good fan base, we don't need to rebuild the ground or have one to pay for, so we should be in an excellent position to outspend our rivals (Birmingham particularly), and as Moxey himself has pointed out, that's what this league is all about.

And outspending your rivals doesn't mean spunking 80k per week on John Utaka. There's a difference between that and giving a desired target an extra couple of grand to seal a deal.

[glasgowwolf]

No matter how you look at it the only difference is the experience in the prem. Stoke did it last year with experience we have a young inexperiende (in football terms let alone premiership) team.

We are not down yet there will be more twists and turns over the next few months. Of course it's possible we will go down but no more likely than burnley, Hull, West Ham. Every one keeps saying West Ham will be out of it but they are still deep in the $$$$e with us.

[OCD Wolf]

For me the approach we should have had was simple. We got it right once, with Doyle. If we go down, we'll easily get 8 - 10 million for him. Enough to reimburse his fee and probably a lot of his wages. Had we repeated this with the likes of Dann and Johnson we would have recouped our outlay because these players are young and improving. 4 or 5 players in the Doyle mould would have cost us yes but we could have a) stayed up or b) sold them on for a profit if we were to go down.
We might have had to outlay some more cash up front (which they say we had) but we would have had it back or stayed up.
Am I being too simplistic? Have I missed something, why couldn't we do this??

[Big Saft Kid]

Originally Posted by OCD Wolf

For me the approach we should have had was simple. We got it right once, with Doyle. If we go down, we'll easily get 8 - 10 million for him. Enough to reimburse his fee and probably a lot of his wages. Had we repeated this with the likes of Dann and Johnson we would have recouped our outlay because these players are young and improving. 4 or 5 players in the Doyle mould would have cost us yes but we could have a) stayed up or b) sold them on for a profit if we were to go down.
We might have had to outlay some more cash up front (which they say we had) but we would have had it back or stayed up.
Am I being too simplistic? Have I missed something, why couldn't we do this??

No, you got it in one. Too complicated for Moxey mind.