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manc_wolf
04-02-2012, 21:23
For me, even as a happy clapper, this season has felt like the worst of all the 4 seasons in the PL. I don't know why - maybe it's cos of expectations - even though I thought my expectations were "to survive", and above all, realistic

However, check out my sig - we are now the highest in the league with the best record - at the same stage of the season - than at any other season we've had in the Premier League...


Astonishing...

northnorfolkwolf
04-02-2012, 21:24
It's astonishing the way we've played that there are 3 teams below us?

OoohRobbieRobbie
04-02-2012, 21:35
What were our stats at this stage in the previous two seasons? Do you have/know them?

Hoganstolemywife
04-02-2012, 21:39
At this stage last season we'd just lost away at Bolton to find ourselves on 21 points from 24 games.

The season before, we'd just sustained that horrible loss away at Birmingham and found ourselves on...21 points from 24 games.

At least we're consistent!

ashfordwolf
04-02-2012, 21:43
More importantly, what happened in our next fixture in previous campaigns?

northnorfolkwolf
04-02-2012, 21:44
Hogan's stats prove conclusively we've not progressed at all in our 3 Prem seasons. Last seasons run in was easier that this, we were playing better and at least 2 of the promoted teams (I personally think all 3) will not go down this time. Yet again we're deep in it.

Hoganstolemywife
04-02-2012, 21:47
We won every single next fixture, against Tottenham in 09/10 and Man Utd in 10/11.

Time to complete the set.

Golden_Wolf
04-02-2012, 21:48
We won every single next fixture, against Tottenham in 09/10 and Man Utd in 10/11.

Time to complete the set.

Albion have apparently never won a PL game in Feb or something like that. Hopefully we make sure they keep that record.

Bull Army
04-02-2012, 21:52
Everyone knows this seasons league is weaker than last seasons, and everyone expects the survival point to be a few points lower. So, this was a point to progress, find ourselves in relative comfortable mid-table, be more attractive in the transfer window, maybe be secure enough to go ahead with the Steve Bull redevelopment etc.

Struggling to 17th place by one goal will not be a success this season.

Hoganstolemywife
04-02-2012, 21:55
I disagree. This season has been a let down - no argument there - but survival will always be viewed as a success for a club our size (until the Greed league changes etc.)

Certainly not a riproaring success, but definitely not a failure.

Wonder Boyo
04-02-2012, 21:56
Everyone knows this seasons league is weaker than last seasons, and everyone expects the survival point to be a few points lower. So, this was a point to progress, find ourselves in relative comfortable mid-table, be more attractive in the transfer window, maybe be secure enough to go ahead with the Steve Bull redevelopment etc.

Struggling to 17th place by one goal will not be a success this season.

Every season people say the same thing - this season's league is easier. Swansea, Norwich and QPR are all reasonable sides. Just because teams like Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool aren't looking as good as usual doesn't mean the league is weaker, it may even be an indication that the league is now much stronger - everyone else has caught up a bit.

WonderWolf
04-02-2012, 22:02
Every season people say the same thing - this season's league is easier. Swansea, Norwich and QPR are all reasonable sides. Just because teams like Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool aren't looking as good as usual doesn't mean the league is weaker, it may even be an indication that the league is now much stronger - everyone else has caught up a bit.

Yes!!

I'm confounded by this viewpoint too. If teams are running away with it, it is stronger, but if it is not the case, it is weaker!:confused:

A strong league is one that is not easy!

Oldgold Wolfcub
04-02-2012, 22:07
At this stage last season we'd just lost away at Bolton to find ourselves on 21 points from 24 games.

The season before, we'd just sustained that horrible loss away at Birmingham and found ourselves on...21 points from 24 games.

At least we're consistent!Oh is that what Morgan regards as stability?:eek:

Golden_Wolf
04-02-2012, 22:09
Everyone knows this seasons league is weaker than last seasons, and everyone expects the survival point to be a few points lower. So, this was a point to progress, find ourselves in relative comfortable mid-table, be more attractive in the transfer window, maybe be secure enough to go ahead with the Steve Bull redevelopment etc.

Struggling to 17th place by one goal will not be a success this season.

This season is not weaker than previous seasons.

I agree more should have been done in the window but we can't do anything about that now.

Survival will always be viewed as a success with our squad as it is. Until there is significant improvement in the way we play and the personnel we have, survival is all that matters and is a success.

northnorfolkwolf
04-02-2012, 22:10
I disagree. This season has been a let down - no argument there - but survival will always be viewed as a success for a club our size (until the Greed league changes etc.)

Certainly not a riproaring success, but definitely not a failure.
1,000,000% disagree. Struggling for survival in our 3rd season is a disgrace. Position 8 down is up for grabs for any of the sides willing to take it on. FFS Norwich could realistically finish 8th? With good management/coaching this squad of players could have finished about 12th and with some better investment last summer we could have attained a top 10 finish. Imo there really is very little to chosse between any of the sides below Liverpool. Sunderland are now 8th - that could have been us had SM been bolder esp in the summer.

wolf of sedgley
04-02-2012, 22:13
Everyone knows this seasons league is weaker than last seasons, and everyone expects the survival point to be a few points lower.

Is it really though? I don't think you can compare seasons so easily.

Poztin
04-02-2012, 22:14
Struggling for survival in our 3rd season is a disgrace.

So what are Blackburn, Bolton and Wigan then considering they have been in far longer?

Super Ted
04-02-2012, 22:17
Everyone knows this seasons league is weaker than last seasons, and everyone expects the survival point to be a few points lower. So, this was a point to progress, find ourselves in relative comfortable mid-table, be more attractive in the transfer window, maybe be secure enough to go ahead with the Steve Bull redevelopment etc.

Struggling to 17th place by one goal will not be a success this season.

I think on paper at the start of the season it looked an easier league. But Norwich and Swansea have ripped this up.

My big concern is that the survival points could be higher than predicted. We've not got a Portsmouth or WHU this season. Nor have we got a Burnley or Blackpool who start off well then fade. The teams around us are established PL teams, bar QPR. They all have the potential to turn their form and pick up over 25 points between now and the end of the season.

Hoganstolemywife
04-02-2012, 22:20
I really don't understand your logic.

I'm not arguing about Wolves here specifically - we've had a poor season, there's no denying that - just the notion that every season must see an improvement.

How does that work? Because it's surely not just Wolves fans who want their sides to avoid a relegation struggle, every other fan expects just the same from his club.

Do you think Wigan's time in the Premier League has been a colossal failure? Do you think Blackburn's stint in the top flight has been a disgrace? Have the last 10 years in which Bolton have been up here been embarrassing for them as a club?

I've been thinking this week about what 'competing' in the Premier League actually means. Look at Norwich, for example. They're having an excellent season and have earned the admiration of many, myself included. But do you really expect them to build upon this season the next year?

And then the next year?

And then the next year?

Do you really think they'll stay up for the next 10 seasons? And how about Swansea? West Brom? QPR? Fulham? Us? Even Everton nowadays?

For any side below 6th, staying up is the first goal. Indeed, for 9/10 teams - in which we definitely fall - it differentiates a good season from a bad season. It's not an enjoyable state of affairs, but it's one that can't be ignored as your posts have an amazing propensity to do so.

Hsvwolf
04-02-2012, 22:22
Personally I think that constantly being in a fight against relegation , many of whom have been involved each seasonis beginning to show mentally.

First year there was an attitude of 'no one expects us to stay up so and had a seige mentality'. Last season similar and we stayed up by the skin of our teeth.

This year think that the good start lulled some of them (and us) into a false sense of security and that it was going to be easier......when it all started to go pear shaped most of thought 'oh $$$$...here we go again'. It must start to tell on your self belief that you are constantly having to play with no room for error and almost afraid to express yourself.....

Know it was against 10 men , but when we had nothing to lose they started to play, only to almost throw it away again once they had something to lose.

Hoganstolemywife
04-02-2012, 22:24
Excellent analysis.

We're so much better when we're up against it!

Bull Army
04-02-2012, 23:25
Every season people say the same thing - this season's league is easier. Swansea, Norwich and QPR are all reasonable sides. Just because teams like Man Utd, Arsenal, Chelsea and Liverpool aren't looking as good as usual doesn't mean the league is weaker, it may even be an indication that the league is now much stronger - everyone else has caught up a bit.

I wasn't talking about the top teams, I was talking about the bottom teams. Blackburn, Wigan, Bolton and ourselves have been in shocking form all season. Last season's relegated teams all had decent spells, Birmingham won a trophy for Christ's sake. They and Blackpool went down on 39 points, even now McCarthy is publicly aiming for 38 points - the only reason he'd declare that in February is because he believes 38 would be more than enough (i.e, he really thinks 35, 36 will be just enough).

As for those other three teams, we all know why Blackburn are where they are, no-one can argue Wigan have been punching well above their weight for years, when they eventually go down, they'll be another Wimbledon/Coventry. Only Bolton have really underachieved. Oh yeah, all three of those teams sold their best players from last season (Jones, N'Zogbia, and Cahill). We are the only one of the bottom four who have strengthened their squad, and so should be doing better.

I say again - a 17th place finish, secured on the final day of the season will not be worth invading the pitch for. 17th place on the final day, but with survival guaranteed 2 or 3 weeks earlier is a slightly different matter.

A wanderer from Bristol
04-02-2012, 23:29
Struggling to 17th place by one goal will not be a success this season.

But we'd all take it now :cool:

Bull Army
04-02-2012, 23:32
But we'd all take it now :cool:

Course we would. But the final analysis would be severely critical. The message, from the top down, was that last season's 'escape' (and it was), wasn't good enough.

Poztin
04-02-2012, 23:47
You've hit the nail on the head there Hogan. Some fans seem to DEMAND visible progress every year.

I can understand why they would want that (we all would), but I also think a bit of perspective is needed. This is why the whole "break the budget for exceptions" argument doesn't wash with me. Where does it end? There will always be some fans demanding the next level.

Pulis recently said it would take 10 years before Stoke could consider themselves an established team.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sport/football/4029373/Stoke-boss-Tony-Pulis-Ive-created-a-monster.html

I'll be happy to fluctuate above the relegation zone for the next 2-3 years. Only relegation can be considered failure for me.

Bull Army
04-02-2012, 23:53
I really don't understand your logic.

I'm not arguing about Wolves here specifically - we've had a poor season, there's no denying that - just the notion that every season must see an improvement.

How does that work? Because it's surely not just Wolves fans who want their sides to avoid a relegation struggle, every other fan expects just the same from his club.

Do you think Wigan's time in the Premier League has been a colossal failure? Do you think Blackburn's stint in the top flight has been a disgrace? Have the last 10 years in which Bolton have been up here been embarrassing for them as a club?

I've been thinking this week about what 'competing' in the Premier League actually means. Look at Norwich, for example. They're having an excellent season and have earned the admiration of many, myself included. But do you really expect them to build upon this season the next year?

And then the next year?

And then the next year?

Do you really think they'll stay up for the next 10 seasons? And how about Swansea? West Brom? QPR? Fulham? Us? Even Everton nowadays?

For any side below 6th, staying up is the first goal. Indeed, for 9/10 teams - in which we definitely fall - it differentiates a good season from a bad season. It's not an enjoyable state of affairs, but it's one that can't be ignored as your posts have an amazing propensity to do so.

Look, just some period of stability would be good. A couple of seasons of mid-table mediocrity, just to we can get a proper foothold in this league, and not be fighting tooth and nail for every single point. It's unsustainable, for a start - the sheer weight of defeats will eventually take it's toll.

And yes, every team should be looking to progress season on season. Every team won't - that's life - but $$$$ everyone else, we are Wolves - all we care about is us. No-one's expecting a season-on-season place-by place advance up the league to win it in 20 years time - that won't happen. I just don't want this season, and last season, to repeat itself for the next 5 years.

Poztin
05-02-2012, 00:02
No-one's expecting a season-on-season place-by place advance up the league to win it in 20 years time - that won't happen.

That's the point though, there are people with those expectations.

People have used our league position last year as proof we didn't progress, despite gaining more points than the previous year.

If we finish 17th this year comfortably, do you think those fans will find that acceptable again? No chance.

Bull Army
05-02-2012, 00:58
Taking 17th place as the absolute minimum requirement, can you honestly say that we're even playing better football than last season? Progress doesn't always have to be in cold, hard points - just some development on the pitch would be nice. When people should out "where's the progress?", they're not necessarily speaking with some hypothetical 10-year plan in mind. Having said that, when you hear the owner, CEO, manager and players' bullish statements at the start of the season, can you blame the fans for believing it. In the first meeting of the three Ms after last seasons Blackburn home game, they'll have all come up with ways they see the team progressing this season. That whole thing of second season syndrome behind us, the 10-15m available to strengthen the squad, the benefits of an extra season of Premier League experience behind the whole squad. And that's before you consider the plights of our aforementioned rivals this season. No-one expected Norwich and Swansea to hit the ground running like they have, but that doesn't excuse our own failings and weaknesses. McCarthy himself has got more managerial experience than Martinez, Kean and Coyle put together. We haven't got the excuses of boardroom chancers, over-achieving tiny clubs, debt-ridden clubs/selling clubs to fall back on. Our failings are entirely of our own making - that's what annoys me the most. Portsmouth had an excuse for being relegated. West Ham, Blackpool, Blackburn, Wigan - they've all got ready made excuses to fall back on. We haven't. That hurts.

The Eternal Flame
05-02-2012, 01:05
Everyone knows this seasons league is weaker than last seasons, and everyone expects the survival point to be a few points lower. So, this was a point to progress, find ourselves in relative comfortable mid-table, be more attractive in the transfer window, maybe be secure enough to go ahead with the Steve Bull redevelopment etc.

Struggling to 17th place by one goal will not be a success this season.

We here this every year. On what basis due you justify that this years Premier League and worse than last years?

The Eternal Flame
05-02-2012, 01:06
is even

SourCream&OnionUtd
05-02-2012, 01:34
1,000,000% disagree. Struggling for survival in our 3rd season is a disgrace. Position 8 down is up for grabs for any of the sides willing to take it on. FFS Norwich could realistically finish 8th? With good management/coaching this squad of players could have finished about 12th and with some better investment last summer we could have attained a top 10 finish. Imo there really is very little to chosse between any of the sides below Liverpool. Sunderland are now 8th - that could have been us had SM been bolder esp in the summer.

I completely agree with you, but I've bolded that because people slate Bruce all the time, and yet he built that team over the summer. Even had to cope with the shock loss of Gyan. It took O'Neill to get them playing, of course.

Look at McClean. Exactly the type of player you would've thought we would sign. And there was Bruce basically taking a flier on him, the least ballyhooed of his summer signings. Also didn't play him.

Completely beside the point but I do think Bruce would be a great technical director.

MK Panther
05-02-2012, 01:34
The truth of the matter only a massive kick up the $$$$ by the fans gets this team going. When they feel threatened the management and coaches react, strange mentality.

Mugwump
05-02-2012, 04:00
The fans didnt build up the expectation this season, Morgan and Moxey did. We have gone backwards. How can anyone be happy with a constant relegation battle? We should be progressing to some extent and i think its down to the manager we havent now. Our squad is the strongest its been since we got back into the premier league yet our football style ( if you can call it that ) is abysmal and the players confidence is at the lowest its been for years. Morgan, Moxey and Mick need to make some brave decisions to move this club forward. I dont think any of them will however and we will continue to stagnate. Its time for some new ideas around the place.

Bull Army
05-02-2012, 10:03
We here this every year. On what basis due you justify that this years Premier League and worse than last years?

Not talking about the top half. Only the bottom. Even McCarthy agrees with me, why would be declare 38 points as the target when we needed 40 last season?