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A nice qoute from Moxey : "Not having a chance of promotion would be an absolute disaster, if we are not promoted this season then we will lose 7 million"
Nice to see that we're not the only ones getting worried! shame that wasn't stressed enough in the summer when Glenn had a few bob to spend. It also says in anothewr article that we are chasing Sheff Utds Danny Webber for 1.5 million along with Leeds!!!!!!!! Can't see that happening at all.
Visage Wolf
01-11-2005, 09:26
Nothing that we didnt know already.
How can we lose money that we don't have? That's like buying a car that costs £50,000 and saying 'I saved £20,000 on it.' No you didn't you spent £50,000. And this guy is running the club - not exactly PriceWaterhouseCoopers material is he?
Stan Cutlass
01-11-2005, 09:28
You can't lose money you're not entitled to in the first place.
It's like getting in debt by over-spending and blamingmummy and daddy as they stopped giving you pocket money.
Love or loathe the fact Glenn Hoddle hasn't spent anything, the club will be in better stead next Summer, if not promoted, than if he did and still didnt get promoted...
Visage Wolf
01-11-2005, 09:29
How can we lose money that we don't have? That's like
buying a car that costs £50,000 and saying 'I saved £20,000 on
it.' No you didn't you spent £50,000. And this guy is running the club - not exactly PriceWaterhouseCoopers material is he?
We have contracts that have to be paid.
If i sign a contract that will cost me 14 million pounds over two
years, and in year one my income is 14 million and in year 2 its only 7
then yes, you have lost 7 million quid.
I suspect its yourself thats not quite up to speed on finance.
No, it's him. If he can't budget medium/long term (especially after what happened with Leeds) and projects money based on success that is as unspecified as it is difficult to achieve then he doesn't know what he's doing.
paddingtonwolf
01-11-2005, 09:39
No, it's him. If he can't budget medium/long term (especially after what happened with Leeds) and projects money based on success that is as unspecified as it is difficult to achieve then he doesn't know what he's doing.
were you the lone voice crying "Moxey must go" at Watford?
No, it's him. If he can't budget medium/long term (especially after what happened with Leeds) and projects money based on success that is as unspecified as it is difficult to achieve then he doesn't know what he's doing.
You're making a judgement on Jez's accounting ability based on a quote he gave to the Sun?
No, Paddy I wasn't at Watford at the weekend, but I've ALWAYS hated this guy and I used to take the P'ss out of Stoke fans for having him at the Victoria Ground. Living in Stafford, you can imagine the grief I took when he 'transferred' to Wolves!
Visage Wolf
01-11-2005, 09:43
No, it's him. If he can't budget medium/long
term (especially after what happened with Leeds) and projects money
based on success that is as unspecified as it is difficult to achieve
then he doesn't know what he's doing.
By that rationale we shouldnt have spent any money in the premeiership,
as retaining our status wasnt guaranteed. We'd also only have been able
to offer players 1 year contracts, as our income for the following year
would be unknown.
Fenella: Believe it or not, even The Sun have to quote in context. And he's right, it will be a disaster if we don't go up, but one that his myopic cloistering of finances will have helped to cause.
Vis: We've only offered Hoddle a one-year contract haven't we? Not exactly planning for the future is it?
paddingtonwolf
01-11-2005, 09:46
Fair enough. Now I know I will probably cop some flak for this, but I think Moxey the pieman is a pretty decent CEO. His job is to make the business run efficiently and properly whilst giving the chance for it to grow and prosper by getting to the greed league and staying there.
Whatever anyone else says, the accounts make better reading now than they have fora long tome, and money has been made available to GH for targets that didn't want to come here. That isn't Jez's fault.
The quote to which you refer is stating financial sense. No promotion and the parachute money ends. Wolves will be in a much more parlous situation and will have to cut cloth accordingly.
Visage Wolf
01-11-2005, 09:48
So you're lambasting Moxey for tying us into long term deals, while at
the same time demanding that the manager should be tied to a long term
deal?
What happens if Hoddle turns out to be a failure after he's signed a 5
year deal? If he's on 500k a year can we really afford to lose 2.5
million quid?
black&gold
01-11-2005, 09:49
A nice qoute from Moxey : "Not having a chance of promotion would be an absolute disaster, if we are not promoted this season then we will lose 7 million"
Nice to see that we're not the only ones getting worried! shame that wasn't stressed enough in the summer when Glenn had a few bob to spend. It also says in anothewr article that we are chasing Sheff Utds Danny Webber for 1.5 million along with Leeds!!!!!!!! Can't see that happening at all. I said in the summer we should of been after this guy...he was going for about 500K then
paddingtonwolf
01-11-2005, 09:49
Fenella: Believe it or not, even The Sun have to quote in context.
I'm sorry but that really tickled me
Visage Wolf
01-11-2005, 09:49
Fair enough. Now I know I will
probably cop some flak for this, but I think Moxey the pieman is a
pretty decent CEO. His job is to make the business run
efficiently and properly whilst giving the chance for it to grow and
prosper by getting to the greed league and staying there.
Whatever anyone else says, the accounts make better reading now than
they have fora long tome, and money has been made available to GH for
targets that didn't want to come here. That isn't Jez's fault.
The quote to which you refer is stating financial sense. No
promotion and the parachute money ends. Wolves will be in a much
more parlous situation and will have to cut cloth accordingly.
Agreed totally.
A football CEO willl always incur the wrath of the fans because his
aims (financial stability, prudence, healthy accounts) are generally at
oddds with what the fans want (big signings, star players, low ticket
prices etc).
Lets not forget - the Leeds fans loved Ridsdale.....at first.
paddingtonwolf
01-11-2005, 09:51
I still think Ridsdale could have got away with it had he avoided the 40k bill for the fish in his office... Edited by: paddingtonwolf
No, Vis, I'm lambasting Poxey for NOT having the vision to plan long-term. If we back the manager with a long term deal, surely more players would be attracted by the idea of stability. At Wolves, as supporters we KNOW that nothing is guaranteed - especially promotion, so how is it that the CEO doesn't know this?
Is it quantum physics for him?
Visage Wolf
01-11-2005, 09:57
No, Vis, I'm lambasting Poxey for NOT having the
vision to plan long-term. If we back the manager with a long term
deal, surely more players would be attracted by the idea of
stability. At Wolves, as supporters we KNOW that nothing is
guaranteed - especially promotion, so how is it that the CEO
doesn't know this?
Is it quantum physics for him?
But you can only plan for as long as you know your income.
Lets say that Moxey were to take your advice and plan long term. Lets say 5 years.
Can you really suggest what Wolves finances will be like in 5 years
time? We could be in the Champions league or the 3rd division by then.
Which do we plan for?
paddingtonwolf
01-11-2005, 10:01
contracts are really worth jack now unless we need to pay one off after ditching someone. 5 year deal = 2.5 mill payoff. 1 year rolling = £500k payoff
Vis: Knowing Wolves we should plan for 10th in the CCC (or whatever it's called then), stadia that will still attract 20000+ a week and similiar amounts of disillusionment to what we have today, because nothing has changed in the last 15 years, so, statistically (and emotionally!)speaking we will be in the same position then, with maybe a flirt withrelegation/promotionalong the way.
EasternWolf
01-11-2005, 10:03
Vis: We've only offered Hoddle a one-year contract haven't we? Not exactly planning for the future is it?
I dont think that is quite what happened and i suspect you know that.
We have a club that has good financial management. We should be very pleased about that.
As far as not spending in the summer is concerned. Hoddle recognised that we had a good squad and one which would benefit from some particular additions. The fact that one or two of them did not agree to come here does not mean that he had to find someone else who was only as good as what we had already. By not spending for the sake of it, we have been able to keep our money, especially our Camara money.
The fact that the team is not putting away chances is not the fault of the sensible logic that underpins the finances of the club.
Visage Wolf
01-11-2005, 10:03
Vis: Knowing Wolves we should plan for 10th in
the CCC (or whatever it's called then), stadia that will still attract
20000+ a week and similiar amounts of disillusionment to what we have
today, because nothing has changed in the last 15 years, so,
statistically (and emotionally!)speaking we will be in the same
position then, with maybe a flirt
withrelegation/promotionalong the way.
So you'd support Jez if he oversaw a radical pruning of the playing staff?
A nice qoute from Moxey : "Not having a chance of promotion would be an absolute disaster, if we are not promoted this season then we will lose 7 million"
Nice to see that we're not the only ones getting worried! shame that wasn't stressed enough in the summer when Glenn had a few bob to spend. It also says in anothewr article that we are chasing Sheff Utds Danny Webber for 1.5 million along with Leeds!!!!!!!! Can't see that happening at all.
I said in the summer we should of been after this guy...he was going for about 500K then
i too would have liked us to have moved for him but alas he joined up with another 12 strikers at Sheff utd.
paddingtonwolf
01-11-2005, 10:05
Vis: Knowing Wolves we should plan for 10th in the CCC (or whatever it's called then), stadia that will still attract 20000+ a week and similiar amounts of disillusionment to what we have today, because nothing has changed in the last 15 years, so, statistically (and emotionally!)speaking we will be in the same position then, with maybe a flirt withrelegation/promotionalong the way.
this reminds me of yesterday's write up of Watford in the Times. Basically it said that over the last 15 years, if one were to measure achievement against expectation, the average Wolves fan must be amongst the most miserable in the country.
How right that journo is
No, I didn't say that. Vis, I can appreciate your arguments, but asI outlined above, Ihave a hard-wired dislike of this man that is not directly linked to anything rational. He's too focussed on the short-term and I do wonder about the wisdom of a club that says it wants promotion then doesn't install it's manager on a three-year deal.
I wouldn't look to prune the playing staff, but I would wonder why it's acceptable to renew JC's contract and not Butler's. That's been chewed to death on here, but it just seems that he doesn't understand the dynamics of the club, the fact that there is a massive well of support that is just waiting to be tapped, not to mention the young, hungry talent that we can devlop in the academy and buy (YES POXEY BUY!) from the lower divsions to create some medium/long term stability that will enable us to augment success at a lower price. I've been thinking this since Taylor was here, but then I, like many others have wondered why we've always sold our best talent and seen them perform well for other clubs.
That's a lttle off on a tangent because that's not Poxey's fault, but Bolton and Charlton have shown what can be done with a Stalin-esque 'Five year plan.'
I also appreciate the fact that this debate has not descended into it's usual backbiting and slandering that seems to be par for the course sometimes on here.
Visage Wolf
01-11-2005, 10:18
No, I didn't say that. Vis, I can appreciate
your arguments, but asI outlined above, Ihave a hard-wired
dislike of this man that is not directly linked to anything
rational. He's too focussed on the short-term and I do wonder
about the wisdom of a club that says it wants promotion then doesn't
install it's manager on a three-year deal.
It seems to me to be VERY wise. Wanting promotion does not equal
acheiving promotion. JM has to strike a balance between trying for
promotion while remaining solvent should we fail. All very boring, i'm
sure, but if any fans should know the risks involved it should be us.
I wouldn't look to prune the playing staff, but I
would wonder why it's acceptable to renew JC's contract and not
Butler's. That's been chewed to death on here, but it just seems
that he doesn't understand the dynamics of the club, the fact that
there is a massive well of support that is just waiting to be tapped,
not to mention the young, hungry talent that we can devlop in the
academy and buy (YES POXEY BUY!) from the lower divsions to create some
medium/long term stability that will enable us to augment success at a
lower price. I've been thinking this since Taylor was here, but
then I, like many others have wondered why we've always sold our best
talent and seen them perform well for other clubs.
Firstly the JC renewal was totally different to the PB situation. JC
is signed as a championship first teamer and a Premiership
backup(hopefully). PB was surplus to requirements.
That's a lttle off on a tangent because that's not
Poxey's fault, but Bolton and Charlton have shown what can be done with
a Stalin-esque 'Five year plan.'
Is that Bolton who are 60m in debt and perennial mid-tablers Charlton?
I also appreciate the fact that this debate has not
descended into it's usual backbiting and slandering that seems to be
par for the course sometimes on here.
Good.
SirJohnRichards
01-11-2005, 10:19
No, Vis, I'm lambasting Poxey for NOT having the vision to plan long-term. If we back the manager with a long term deal, surely more players would be attracted by the idea of stability. At Wolves, as supporters we KNOW that nothing is guaranteed - especially promotion, so how is it that the CEO doesn't know this?
Is it quantum physics for him?
But you can only plan for as long as you know your income.
Lets say that Moxey were to take your advice and plan long term. Lets say 5 years.
Can you really suggest what Wolves finances will be like in 5 years time? We could be in the Champions league or the 3rd division by then.
Which do we plan for?
I am no accountant, however I do run a business and we always have a 1yr plan, a 3yr plan and a 5 yr plan. The second two have to be based on forecasts of future growth and taken in the wider context of the sector you are in. In order to help me do this I employ people who have skills in the required areas and are able to offer informed accurate (as possible) advice. No one can see into the future but we can use a best estimate (or guesstimate in some cases) and I would have thought that someone of the calibre of Jez Moxey could achieve this. He is after all very well paid and responsible for a reasonably large budget. (I think! smileys/smiley5.gif)
Oldgold Wolfcub
01-11-2005, 10:21
but I would wonder why it's acceptable to renew JC's contract and not Butler's.
I dont know but maybe Jones did not want Butler as much as some on here
think he did. Interesting though if it is Hoddle that still wants
Craddock.
Right. So we'll agree to disagree. I'm venting my spleen against Poxey. I can understand the - sometime- wisdom of the club to install somebody who can balance the books, but it seems to me that he has made some fairly gross errors along the way. A CEO will never be popular with the fans (unless he's a Russian oil oligarch) butI think that his communication lacks transparency and his planning is firmly anchored in the short term. It might cost us less to get rid of Hoddle, but should we really be looking to do that? As you might correctly reply, we have a history of hiring and firing and it is prudent to tie him up to a short term contract.
On a seperate point I couldn't understand why we improved DJ's contract in the premiership, when that's what he was paid to do, then fire him less than eighteen months later, although I still think he had to go. Can you enlighten me?
A CEO will never be popular with the fans (unless he's a Russian oil oligarch)
Ask Hearts fans what they think on that one!!
paddingtonwolf
01-11-2005, 10:37
would that be dictator Romanov who has just sacked the board and is moments away from "take this club to Vladivistok"?
Don't mean to be pedantic, but Romanov's Lithuanian.
paddingtonwolf
01-11-2005, 10:39
ok take this club to Vilnius
Forgive me. I don't get how we will be in better stead in the summer due to Hoddle's reluctance to spend, I don't get how we will be on a more stable financial footing because Moxey is an astute CEO.
The money that should have been used to give us a shot at surviving in the Prem was shown as a £5M profit, but where did it go? to pay off a longer term debt,which wasn't really a debt because it was supposed to have been written off by the old man, wasn't it?
This season, the season ticket money, the parachute money, not to mention the 'well done Moxey' Camara money....where is it? 'spent' on loan signings and frees. I cannot see how any fan could avocate the selling of Miller or Lescott or any other family jewels knowing that any money incoming will be 'made available to the manager' (but it won't really).
For all this talk of a sound financial footing, please expect wolves to announce further losses at the end of this year due to ......<-please fill in whatever excusesounds plausibleat the time. Meanwhile, the Wend debt, that was so 'generously' written off, will get a further downpayment.
Why can't the board just be honest about their motives and be done with it, instead of making us suffer with our tattered expectations?
Oldgold Wolfcub
01-11-2005, 10:44
As I have said many times the problem is not Moxey it is the lack of
good Directors on the Board to make decisions and steer the club. If
they had both come at the same time maybe Richards and Moxey could have
worked together with their own skills rising to the fore.
Blackstrobe
01-11-2005, 10:44
Where is the evidence of Moxey planning long term? This club has for as long as i can remember been all bout getting promoted 'next season'. We fritter away money on horrendous transfers and that includes during moxeys reign. We have long been known as a team that tries to buy its way out of the division. If we spend 1.5million on danny webber i think i may rupture my spleen.
I think we should trim the wage bill by getting rid of the players who dont really want to play for this club (the evidence is on the pitch for all to see) and begin a system of blooding the youngsters. Our five year plan should be to win the championship within the next fiive years with a team based around last seasons youth cup team and other talented youngsters at the club and the cream of the current crop. Weve got a lot of good young players at the club including Seyi and seol who do have some talent (not sure what seyis is but the scouts at monaco msut have seen somthin).
we need to choose a system which suits our squad and stick with it and develop it and the players in the team. money spent should be on talented youngsters and quality pros on the way out who can provide experience to the team and guidance to the youngsters. (eg Irwin, Ince)
Blackstrobe: Iadmireyour thinking, but can you really imagine the impatient minions of Molineux buying into this kind of deal? More practically, is the hothouse of Molineux the best place to blood youngsters without some experience to rely on. At Old Trafford it was Keane . . . at Wolves Anderton?!
Moxey has completed over 5 years as CEO at Wolves and by his own admission he has only made a profit once in that time. O.K., maybe it's taken him 5 years to turn it around and we will make a profit from here on. Not so says Moxey, we will be losing money again next year.
Moxey has had 5 years to sort out the crippling wage bill at Wolves and has failed to significantly reduce it. I can't think of many employees who were here before Moxey and are still here now, so he negotiated all of the wages that now make up our massive wage bill. Two major drains on resources are the current manager and Moxey himself. Both are well paid when compared to their peers.
Anyone that thinks that Moxey has done a good must be ignoring the facts and believing Moxey's spin. Perhaps you would like to invest in my Nigerian trust fund, I'll look after your money for you.....Edited by: I.D.
Essex Wolf
01-11-2005, 11:42
I have to agree with Axle in that the club cannot lose what they never had. Moxey's comments have most likely been taken out of context. We all know that failing to go up means the club won't get anymore Sky/parachute money but that also applies to Leeds and Leicester as well as any other club who got relegated the season before Wolves from the Prem.
The fact GH has failed to spend any of he money he suposedly has at his disposal will still be available next season if it remains unspent in Jan and if it isn't available then some serious questions need asking.
For what it's worth I honestly believe that if come Jan 06 Wolves are nowhere near at least the PO places then I can't see the point in the club wasting money on players that time of the season. Hold the cash back and for once in their blody lifes plan for the next season and properly.
Essex,
I take it that Moxey means that our income will be reduced by £7million and that he expects us to make a financial loss in that year as a result.
Essex Wolf
01-11-2005, 11:51
Essex,
I take it that Moxey means that our income will be reduced by £7million and that he expects us to make a financial loss in that year as a result.
That's how I see it ID as regards the reduction in income but with possible player sales etc there is no gaurantee we will make a loss???
