View Full Version : That Old Chestnut
I am pleased that the side is shaping up quite well, with cover in all positions ,but the old chesnut of needing a Proper Captain hasn't gone away. Craddock and Henry are not the fist shaking type of Captain we need to induce that little bit extra out of the players. We need a leader for when we are 1 down away from home on a wet and windy Tuesday night in January. I hope it doesn't come back to haunt us.
kidder_wolf_II
22-07-2008, 18:34
Thats why we need to sign a leader. We need a centre back so it makes sense to sign an experienced leader.
Berra is young but a captain so would be a good choice even though he might lack the experience.
But who else is available who has been a good leader?
Essex Wolf
22-07-2008, 18:36
I am pleased that the side is shaping up quite well, with cover in all positions ,but the old chesnut of needing a Proper Captain hasn't gone away. Craddock and Henry are not the fist shaking type of Captain we need to induce that little bit extra out of the players. We need a leader for when we are 1 down away from home on a wet and windy Tuesday night in January. I hope it doesn't come back to haunt us.
The two you mention though are the only real options. Gray doesn't get to play a full game and unless McCarthy sees leadership qualities elsewhere not sure who else he has to choose from.
kidder_wolf_II
22-07-2008, 18:42
We could always just make our own captain. Kightly seems like a model pro. He is always the first player to step up a gear or 2 when things are not going to plan. With him as captain that attitude would rub off onto the rest of the side.
Or if Davies can get into the starting XI he surelly would be another contender.
If the new captain is already at the club then one of the younger players has to be given it. Unless MM can find a captain who can play CB.
cooper_J
22-07-2008, 18:43
I am pleased that the side is shaping up quite well, with cover in all positions ,but the old chesnut of needing a Proper Captain hasn't gone away. Craddock and Henry are not the fist shaking type of Captain we need to induce that little bit extra out of the players. We need a leader for when we are 1 down away from home on a wet and windy Tuesday night in January. I hope it doesn't come back to haunt us.
Season hasn't started yet, who knows what might happen before then.
I see Stephen Pressley has signed for Doncaster - he's good captain material but slow and well past his sell by date.
Any suggestions? Gravesen is the first name that comes to mind but I don't very much that is going to happen.
The two you mention though are the only real options. Gray doesn't get to play a full game and unless McCarthy sees leadership qualities elsewhere not sure who else he has to choose from.
The point I am making is that we MUST sign a leader. The clock is still ticking.
Deutsch Wolf
22-07-2008, 18:49
I think it's a bit of a red herring, to be honest, where were the 'leaders' in West Brom's side? Greening is a good player but not exactly vocal, ditto Phillips.
We had Paul "shaking fist" Ince here for two of the last four years we've been in this league, it didn't get us anywhere, if anything he hurt the confidence of some of our other players.
I think it's a bit of a red herring, to be honest, where were the 'leaders' in West Brom's side? Greening is a good player but not exactly vocal, ditto Phillips.
We had Paul "shaking fist" Ince here for two of the last four years we've been in this league, it didn't get us anywhere, if anything he hurt the confidence of some of our other players.
The difference with the Albion is that they had a team who could play football and score goals on a consistant basis. They went behind in a number of games but the above attributes saw them home. Although I believe we will score more goals this season I still fear we have a bit of a soft underbelly. A good captain sometimes does it by example,sometimes cajoling and sometimes by having a go. We need that dominant type of leader.
scrufftyguy
22-07-2008, 18:58
....Kightly seems like a model pro. He is always the first player to step up a gear or 2 when things are not going to plan. With him as captain that attitude would rub off onto the rest of the side.
Could be a good shout that, good to have someone leading by example!
kidder_wolf_II
22-07-2008, 19:02
Could be a good shout that, good to have someone leading by example!
The campain starts here then
Kightly 4 Captain :D:D
Someone do a poll i cant be bothered ha ha
Essex Wolf
22-07-2008, 19:15
The point I am making is that we MUST sign a leader. The clock is still ticking.
Nothing to say it will happen though jonzy.
rincewind
22-07-2008, 19:24
Of the players we have Henry seems the obvious candidate - if he gets to start, which is why I think no captain has been designated.
Give Stearman the oar!
Had the pleasure of seeing the team at Hereford last Wednesday and was very impressed with Stearman. He certainly marshalled the defence well, and was really vocal; with both his encouragement to others and his reading of the game. He also seemed calm and collected. I know it was only 45 minutes and it was only Hereford but...................
Oddly Kightly came to my mind also. Has anybody else noticed that he goes to each player before the match and shakes their hand.
And lets face it if Beckham can do it from the right wing anyone can
Oldgoldwulf
22-07-2008, 23:29
Thats why we need to sign a leader. We need a centre back so it makes sense to sign an experienced leader.
Berra is young but a captain so would be a good choice even though he might lack the experience.
But who else is available who has been a good leader?
Sorry mate - don't agree at all...
If you read the Hearts forums - their fans are pretty adamant that he is a decent young, pacy centre-half - but isn't a captain.
They all seemed to agree that him being made captain was the worst thing that could have happened to him last season!
Black Suit
23-07-2008, 02:11
No individual apart from Craddock fits the bill, a sad state of affairs.
Hereford Wolf
23-07-2008, 06:10
Give Stearman the oar!
Had the pleasure of seeing the team at Hereford last Wednesday and was very impressed with Stearman. He certainly marshalled the defence well, and was really vocal; with both his encouragement to others and his reading of the game. He also seemed calm and collected. I know it was only 45 minutes and it was only Hereford but...................
I thought that as well. Maybe its a bit too early for him, but......
Atlas 1951
23-07-2008, 15:19
Like, Deutsch, I'm not convinced of this perceived "necessity". Everybody involved in the club keeps banging on about the great team spirit, which is a large part of the captain's job already done. Plus, as I mentioned on another thread, there may well be chemistry there that does not adapt to having some slow, bald, y-front wearing Scotsman with a combover coming the old hand.
If confidence is lacking, or if we need a hand to steady the ship come January, fine: get him in then on a half-year loan, saving a fortune on wages and guaranteeing we're not paying for a crock.
That said, I'd much rather we got a good centre-half in than converted Elokobi overnight. If that centre-half has a good CV then great. But I think people are falling back on received opinion a little, with regard to this question. Team mentality is not a jigsaw puzzle you put together, and I think you need to see the team in action over a period of games to judge whether there is such a need at all.
Like, Deutsch, I'm not convinced of this perceived "necessity". Everybody involved in the club keeps banging on about the great team spirit, which is a large part of the captain's job already done. Plus, as I mentioned on another thread, there may well be chemistry there that does not adapt to having some slow, bald, y-front wearing Scotsman with a combover coming the old hand.
If confidence is lacking, or if we need a hand to steady the ship come January, fine: get him in then on a half-year loan, saving a fortune on wages and guaranteeing we're not paying for a crock.
That said, I'd much rather we got a good centre-half in than converted Elokobi overnight. If that centre-half has a good CV then great. But I think people are falling back on received opinion a little, with regard to this question. Team mentality is not a jigsaw puzzle you put together, and I think you need to see the team in action over a period of games to judge whether there is such a need at all.
I disagree my friend-there is a need. Points in August are just as important as those in January. Your assertion that we look/deal with it then would be based on us playing catch up at that time. We have to hit the ground running-dominating sides-hitting back at sides if we go one down.
Most fans I speak to agree we need a captain,whether he is a tub thumper or dominant character who leads by example. We just don't possess one.
Essex Wolf
23-07-2008, 15:47
No individual apart from Craddock fits the bill, a sad state of affairs.
It is sad Black Suit.
When you think about the high number of players that have joined the club since McCarthy's arrival it's amazing that very few have been Captain material, although that may be because the situation never arose to try them.
Craddock was at the club upon MM's arrival so the choices since he took over have been very limited it seems.
Atlas 1951
23-07-2008, 17:13
I disagree my friend-there is a need. Points in August are just as important as those in January. Your assertion that we look/deal with it then would be based on us playing catch up at that time. We have to hit the ground running-dominating sides-hitting back at sides if we go one down.
Most fans I speak to agree we need a captain,whether he is a tub thumper or dominant character who leads by example. We just don't possess one.
As a ref, you'll have your own take on the role of a captain, which is fair enough. I wasn't suggesting that we take our chances with a below-strength side until January, though. I'm just questioning the whole notion that a young side by definition needs an experienced, statesman-like captain. Team spirit is about chemistry, and I can't help feeling that an old, overpaid pro shouting at everybody to "sort themselves out" might do as much harm as good.
The fans that you've spoken to are entitled to their opinion (and it will be a more informed one than mine, as I live abroad), but surely a captain's true worth goes largely unnoticed by fans. I wonder if they really see a need for it, or whether, after a couple of defeats, they look at the squad, notice something we haven't got, and jump to conclusions. There is a difference.
As a ref, you'll have your own take on the role of a captain, which is fair enough. I wasn't suggesting that we take our chances with a below-strength side until January, though. I'm just questioning the whole notion that a young side by definition needs an experienced, statesman-like captain. Team spirit is about chemistry, and I can't help feeling that an old, overpaid pro shouting at everybody to "sort themselves out" might do as much harm as good.
The fans that you've spoken to are entitled to their opinion (and it will be a more informed one than mine, as I live abroad), but surely a captain's true worth goes largely unnoticed by fans. I wonder if they really see a need for it, or whether, after a couple of defeats, they look at the squad, notice something we haven't got, and jump to conclusions. There is a difference.
I don't disagree with what you have said,it's just that we seem to have too many games,usually away from home when certain players are anonymous. Whilst it does't always work,a good Captain recognises this and gees up the players-if this is by example rather that just berating them ,fine.
I think the crux of it all is that in essence we are a quiet side. WH doesn't scream at defenders (maybe it will come),our centre backs and midfield are also quiet and none of our forward players with the possible exception of SEB shout much.
In conclusion ,I just think we still have a slightly soft underbelly. I hope I am wrong.
Atlas 1951
24-07-2008, 17:22
I don't disagree with what you have said,it's just that we seem to have too many games,usually away from home when certain players are anonymous. Whilst it does't always work,a good Captain recognises this and gees up the players-if this is by example rather that just berating them ,fine.
I think the crux of it all is that in essence we are a quiet side. WH doesn't scream at defenders (maybe it will come),our centre backs and midfield are also quiet and none of our forward players with the possible exception of SEB shout much.
In conclusion ,I just think we still have a slightly soft underbelly. I hope I am wrong.
Fair enough. While we're on this subject, Jonzy, what is the state of play regarding discussions with referees? I had heard that only the captain was going to be able to do it from this season. Is that the case, or am I jumping the gun?
Goldisocks
24-07-2008, 17:57
I still feel Gary Breen was a better option than Jody Craddock but on the proviso the Midfield and Strikers were upgraded (which seems to be the case). If they cannot get a quality Centre-Half, hopefully not Balde then save the money and go with Jody for now.
Deutsch Wolf
24-07-2008, 17:58
Breen's got a knee injury which isn't going away any time soon, he can't play a full season at this level any more. One of the reasons he's yet to find a new club.
Deutsch Wolf
24-07-2008, 17:59
Apologies if it has already been mentioned, but at the bottom of this article it mentions a possible player exchange.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/teams/h/hull_city/7523541.stm
Have Hull got much quality in their squad? I'd have thought any decent players they have, they would want to keep hold of them.
Dean Marney had a cracking season for them last time out, but I'd think it highly unlikely they'd let him go. They also have a fine goalkeeper in Myhill, but we have no use for him.
Fair enough. While we're on this subject, Jonzy, what is the state of play regarding discussions with referees? I had heard that only the captain was going to be able to do it from this season. Is that the case, or am I jumping the gun?
That was what I heard,but I have seen nothing official. Like all edicts such as this,they will only last as long as the likes of Ferguson/Wenger et al back the refs when they take action(Yeah Right!). If it comes in and there are a glut of cards,Ferguson/Wenger will demand a summit with Keith Hackett and it will soon be confined to history or rapidly revamped-The script has been rit (sic)
I pray that Refs don't bottle it and the likes of Lampard/Terry/Cole/Drogba finally get their come uppance. Equally ,the smoking/milk skinned/uncooth Scouse git also gets dealt with for his foul mouthed diatribes. I won't hold my breath though.
I think it's a bit of a red herring, to be honest, where were the 'leaders' in West Brom's side? Greening is a good player but not exactly vocal, ditto Phillips.
We had Paul "shaking fist" Ince here for two of the last four years we've been in this league, it didn't get us anywhere, if anything he hurt the confidence of some of our other players.
i thought it did?
dr:cool:
Stewarton Wolf
25-07-2008, 07:35
With regard to Craddock as captain, It will be interesting to see if he even makes the starting 11, I think its beginning to look like he may have to settle for a place on the bench.
Del Woppio
25-07-2008, 07:44
Kightly. No tub-thumper, but he's first pick, influential, our talisman, and can grab a game by the scruff and turn it round. He's an excellent example to follow.
Stewarton Wolf
25-07-2008, 08:00
Kightly. No tub-thumper, but he's first pick, influential, our talisman, and can grab a game by the scruff and turn it round. He's an excellent example to follow.
A lot of pressure for a young inexperienced winger, added to that defences were coming to terms with him before he got injured. He can be marginalised in games not ideal for a captain.
Del Woppio
25-07-2008, 08:07
It's a lot of pressure, but I don't think he'd need to *do* anything really. With regards to him being 'woked out' by defenders, I think that was made easier by the fact was our only threat - with creativity across the midfield (unless Henry plays) the opposition won't be able to stifle our only threat quite so easily.
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