Wolves Decline

[peckhamwolf]

Who do you blame for the decline in WWFC which eventually brought about the bhatti's situation? I've heard all sorts of people blamed, including the Doog, but personally I blame Barnwell. He had the chance to bring in Michel Platini, didn't and within a few years Platini was top scorer in Serie A (from midfield) and World Player of the Year, whilst Barnwell was trying to rejuvinate Walsall.

[Mutchy]

The building of the John Ireland Stand was the straw that broke the camel's back.


John Barnwell did a decent job with an aging team that wasn't likely to remain together for much longer. His accident prevented us from getting a true view of how he would have moved the team on.

[Rhoswolf]

Firstly Wolverhampton Council who refused planning permission to develop the ground in the late 50's.


Secondly John Ireland for sacking Stan Cullis.


Thirdly Harry Marshall for being a total and utter t****r.


Fourthly Doug Ellis who put the club into liquidation in the expectation of buying on the cheap.


Fifthly the Doog for being used by a couple of asset strippers.


And then ..............?

[Sparky]

I thought Platini had offers from Wolves and Juventus and chose Juve. He's one of a few that we are rumoured to could of had - Anelka, Cech, Solskjaer and Poborsky.

[Essex Wolf]

PW, not sure the real reason for the declinewill ever be known mate so apportioning blame to something so long ago is just guess work for me.

[I.D.]

The building of the John Ireland Stand was the straw that broke the camel's back.

I agree that this was part of our downfall.

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

The vast majority of clubs will have their ups and downs and I think
the reasons put forward have all got validity. However if we are
looking at the now then I am afraid what I am about to say might not
sit well with some.

The reason we have not seen that cycle take us back up to the top can
only be laid at the door of Jack Hayward. He has been the man who has
overseen the lack of success over the last fifteen years or so during a
time when also thanks to him we have enjoyed financial resources that
alone should have taken us back to the top flight. Here I do not regard
one poor season in the premiership as a good return.

This is not a personal attack but an objective look his time in charge.
If this was any other club we would all be laughing at their record. We
had begun to recover when SJH took over the ownership of this club and
at this present time we cannot say we are better off. Otherwise why the
point of the thread. Since that time there has been a terrible
stagnation with a succession of weak directors and poor managers.

I cannot believe that Jack Hayward built his empire by employing those
who did not deliver. I can only think that as far as Wolves go SJH has
been ruled by his heart and not his head and that we needed his
ruthless streak a little more than just his leniency on those not
delivering the goods.

Glenn Hoddle is unlikely to get us out of this mess on his own. We need a strong Board and we have not got it.

[Mutchy]

so apportioning blame to something so long ago is just guess work for me.


Not so different from the present then Essex!smileys/smiley2.gifsmileys/smiley36.gif

[wolf of sedgley]

Glenn Hoddle is unlikely to get us out of this mess on his own. We need a strong Board and we have not got it.






Agreed.

[I.D.]

OgW,

I disagree with you and there is evidence from other clubs that says that you are wrong.

Take Fulham, who are currently just hanging onto their place in the Premier League. Their ground is one of the worst in the entire Football League and they are virtually broke, yet their owner is mega-rich and has poured millions into the club in the past.

A quick glance at all of the league tables shows teams that have had or still have multi-millionaire owners. I can think of one that has never had a sniff of success and is currently in League 2. There are others in League 1 and our own league.

Success at Wolves may have been cyclical in the past, but that is not a guarantee that it would have continued. Other teams have also stagnated for years and to blame the current owner doesn't make any sense.

It's worth remembering that Chelsea also nearly bankrupted themselves by building a new stand and they were also relegated. Things could be very different for them.

Edit I really ought to read a post before clicking the post button.Edited by: I.D.

[I.D.]

While I'm in the mood for a rant, what a load of bull$$$$$ about our board. Do you know any of them personally? There are 3 men on our board. I might not like some of Moxey's actions, but I have to admit that he has got balls. I know nothing about Manduca and I would suggest that neither do the massive majority of Wolves fans. As for Rick, some people seem content to judge him on a couple of "Tim nice but dim" speeches, but they don't have the first clue as to what he is really like.

It's an utter load of crap for the vast majority of the posters on here to pass judgement on our board without even knowing who (or what) they are talking about.Edited by: I.D.

[Captainwolf]

Most Wolves supporters will have a much closer link to the club than
myself. Either having been born in Wolverhampton (or thereabouts) - or
whose parents are from the area - or maybe others who have moved to
the area. I could probably best be described as a 'glory hunter' from the
days when the mighty Wolves were staging their floodlit battles and
restoring pride in British football. I have followed their fortunes ever since
and it amazes me in the way that the club has been run and allowed to
stagnate. I suppose one should be grateful for SJH stepping in to 'rescue'
the club but the set-up of the club was obviously flawed to allow the need
for such a benefactor. Whatever business acumen it takes to concrete
over the Bahamas and make a fortune in the process, that know-how
obviously does not work when applied to running a football club. An
injection of cash does not automatically guarantee success, eg: Alan
Sugar, Elton John or Chris Wright to name just a few. The obvious
exception being wealthy foreigners whose largesse comes at the expense
of their own people. There are also too many disreputable 'investers' who
merely look to the profit potential for themselves, whether by selling the
ground or ripping off the fans. Personally I would much prefer to see
every football club owned by the fans as are (apparently) the top Italian
clubs. [:
(] Edited by: Captainwolf

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

ID I have no problem with people disagreeing with me but I fail to see what point or points in particular you disagree.

You start off by backing my argument in the fact that Fulham are back
in the top division after years out of it. Their owner has poured money
in but many clubs have done this without success.

You may very well be able to come up with examples of other clubs who
should have done better but that should never be an excuse why we
haven't. Also some of the clubs you are thinking of may have rich
chairman but it does not mean that he has made the funds available to
them that SJH did for us.

Look at the premier at the moment and you will find teams such as
Blackburn, Bolton, who went down for many years before coming back up.
Similarly you have teams like Nottm F and Shef W who could also do the
same in the future.

to finish replying to you I dont use the word blame in respect of SJH
as it sounds too negative for how I think of his tenure but I do think
as the man responsible for all things decided he needs to take
responsibility. I think he would also agree as he has never shirked
from saying this in the past.

Compare this with say Dave Whelan who was never content to just own a
football club. He was determined to have a successful club and has
never seen any of the arguments against that success as a reason
for failure. Therefore Wigan have done something almost everyone had
said was impossible.

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

ID your econd post unfortunately does revert to more of a personal
attack. I dont think that bull$$$$$ is a very constructive argument.

Tell me do you need to know the owners of Cadbury to judge their
chocolate? If you personally did not like Tesco's would that reflect
that they were not successful.

It does not take much to realise that we do not have the kind of talent
in quantity and quality to run the business of a football club. I have
always given credit to Moxey for his role in the club but he is an
administrator and as such executes the decisions made by the Board as a
whole. If either Tim or our other invisible director were doing
anything of any note we would be hearing about it.

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

I could probably best be described as a 'glory hunter' from the

days when the mighty Wolves were staging their floodlit battles and

restoring pride in British football. I have followed their fortunes ever since

and it amazes me in the way that the club has been run and allowed to

stagnate. I suppose one should be grateful for SJH stepping in to 'rescue'

the club but the set-up of the club was obviously flawed to allow the need

for such a benefactor. Whatever business acumen it takes to concrete

over the Bahamas and make a fortune in the process, that know-how

obviously does not work when applied to running a football club.

(]

I would say likewise as I became a Wolves fan from the fifties.

The one thing I would like to mention though which has been documented
on this site time and again is that Jack Hayward did not save this
club. He took over when we were promoted to the old second division.
True he was behind the new Stadium but it can only be open to
speculation what might have happened if SJH had not taken over. I am
not saying we would have but we could have been better off.

[HazelGroveWolf]

If memory serves the JI stand and the Steve Daley-Andy Gray transfers contributed. The SD money could have been better spent. Classic case of a short term deal over taking a long term gamble. Would have worked if the SD money had been used on a variety of players/infrastucture rather than chucking the whole lot at Villa.


BTW I will never tolerate a bad word said about Doog.

[peckhamwolf]

people trusted Doog because they felt because of his footballing abilities his business acumen would obviously be the same standard. Sadly it was not.

[I.D.]

OgW,

if you hold up Fulham as an example of a successfully run club, you are mistaken. They may currently be just about clinging on to their Premier League status, but I don't see them as a threat to Arsenal's record of most years in the top flight. They are broke as a business and their ground is fit for League 2.

There are plenty of examples of owners pouring millions into football clubs without success. The point that I disagree with is you saying that (the blame) can only be laid at the door of (Sir to you) Jack Hayward. You know nothing of our board and to make comments like "they are not strong" can be described as bull$$$$$.

You are not doing the equivilant of judging Cadbury by their chocolate, you are critisising the owner of our club and judging a board that you frankly know $$$$$$$ all about.

If I wanted to get personal, I would say something like, "Get a life and try watching a Wolves game in person for once".

[dr cool]

Who do you blame for the decline in WWFC which
eventually brought about the bhatti's situation? I've heard all sorts
of people blamed, including the Doog, but personally I blame Barnwell.
He had the chance to bring in Michel Platini, didn't and within a few
years Platini was top scorer in Serie A (from midfield) and World
Player of the Year, whilst Barnwell was trying to rejuvinate
Walsall.



what decline ?



drsmileys/smiley16.gif

[I.D.]

And that's another thing OgW, you didn't even read the question. Call yourself a teacher, you would go mad at one of your students for doing that.

[Wolfman jack]

If memory serves the JI stand and the Steve Daley-Andy Gray transfers contributed. The SD money could have been better spent. Classic case of a short term deal over taking a long term gamble. Would have worked if the SD money had been used on a variety of players/infrastucture rather than chucking the whole lot at Villa.


BTW I will never tolerate a bad word said about Doog.


To effectively swap Steve Daley for Andy Gray was an excellent bit of business and helped set up the success we had in the next couple of years, even though at that time, SD was, in my opinion, one of the best midfielders I have ever seen at the Mol. Sadly, he totally lost his form at Man City and so the deal is always quoted in the "worst of all time" league.


DD was naive, and taken for a ride (and prevented SJH taking over earlier) as some of his subsequent business dealings have shown .....allegedly.

[HazelGroveWolf]

If memory serves the JI stand and the Steve Daley-Andy Gray transfers contributed. The SD money could have been better spent. Classic case of a short term deal over taking a long term gamble. Would have worked if the SD money had been used on a variety of players/infrastucture rather than chucking the whole lot at Villa.


BTW I will never tolerate a bad word said about Doog.


To effectively swap Steve Daley for Andy Gray was an excellent bit of business and helped set up the success we had in the next couple of years, even though at that time, SD was, in my opinion, one of the best midfielders I have ever seen at the Mol. Sadly, he totally lost his form at Man City and so the deal is always quoted in the "worst of all time" league.


DD was naive, and taken for a ride (and prevented SJH taking over earlier) as some of his subsequent business dealings have shown .....allegedly.








I agree DD got it wrong but at the same time he is human and did contribute with the best of intentions. It has always rankled with me that certain sections make it out that he was the villain. I met him a couple of times in that era, he certainly wasn't. Today he should be remembered for his contribution as a player.

[Squidgey]

I agree, it is well documented that the club borrowed the money to finance the JI stand which would also have included compulsory purchases on the old Molineux Street and well above the million or so pound the stand actually cost to build. The club couldn't afford to service the debt in the early eighties, as the signings we made seem to bear this out (apart from Andy Gray, which was paid for by Steve Daley going to Man City), I can't remember us spending much more in transfer fees, and eventually went into liquidation.


In the overall scheme of things, the club were in a no win situation. The ground was clearly in need of redevelopment (in 1986, the JI stand was the only one to be granted a safety certificate, until work was completed on the South Bank) and realised something needed to be done. The timing seemed right, too, as a year or so later we won the league cup and finished in the top six.


Maybe the decision in the 50/60's to refuse planning permission for the new ground (anyone see the plans? Wow!) is the cause of 40 years of under achievement and almost death of the club we love. Having said that, a 40 year old super stadium might not look so good now, and merely prolonged the inevitable!

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

And that's another thing OgW, you didn't even read the
question. Call yourself a teacher, you would go mad at one of your
students for doing that.

I think you like to argue with yourself as you certainly cannot debate
my points. And no it seems that I must be a lot more tolerant and open
than you so no I would not go mad a student.

I also do not claim to be an expert on the Board as you obviously are.
But if you are happy living in your own version of the world so be it.

However I will repeat that Jack Hayward is the owner of Wolves and
therefore it is his responsibility for the success or failure. But its
interesting to hear the ideas of someone who is obviously a born loser.

[whitemouse75]

no way you are a teacher.

[Oldgold Wolfcub]

no way you are a teacher.

No way am I a taxi driver.

[Captainwolf]

no way you are a teacher.
No way am I a taxi driver.


We need both taxis and teachers.

Preferably, licenced taxis and able teachers.

smileys/smiley14.gif

[Berkswolf]

Who do you blame for the decline in WWFC which
eventually brought about the bhatti's situation? I've heard all sorts
of people blamed, including the Doog, but personally I blame Barnwell.
He had the chance to bring in Michel Platini, didn't and within a few
years Platini was top scorer in Serie A (from midfield) and World
Player of the Year, whilst Barnwell was trying to rejuvinate
Walsall.



Peckham, unless my memory fails me badly you seem to have things a bit
clouded here mate. Platini wasn't signed because he broke his leg
just before completion. Barnwell was one of the best managers of his
era untll he was in a very serious car accident. He never really
recovered, hence his decline.

[Essex Wolf]

so apportioning blame to something so long ago is just guess work for me.


Not so different from the present then Essex!smileys/smiley2.gifsmileys/smiley36.gif








Harsh, very harsh.smileys/smiley2.gif

[thaibri]

Actually when Wolves signed Andy Grey, they also signed Dave Thomas a left sided midfielder to provide the crosses. I know that he would not change the boots he wore, and Rithie Barker who was John Barnwells assistant, had an arguement with him and he hardly ever played for us. Wolves were a better team when Barnwell was out injured when playing under Barker.


Platini did choose Juventus instead of Wolves. Up to him.

[kennyB]

Rhoswolf mentioned the sacking of Stan Cullis as the start of Wolves decline. I agree with him. Although we may still have been relegated in the year he was sacked I feel sure he would have got us back up again very quickly. Older supporters may recall that Cullis had been ill for some time before being fired and was not in attendance at the club, after what he had achieved at Molineux it was disgraceful to fire him at that time.It was an insult to some of us supporters to name a stand after John Ireland.

[peckhamwolf]

i wasn't being serious when I blamed Barnwell, he and Barker were an excellent double act.

John Ireland must take the blame for starting the decline, although thechairman afterwards....Harry something or other....made him look so good in comparison that we named a stand after him.

[Mutchy]

Harry Marshall

[EasternWolf]

Glenn Hoddle is unlikely to get us out of this mess on his own. We need a strong Board and we have not got it.


Agreed.



Which mess is that? I thought we were doing ok financially compared to many.


One additional reason for a decline compared to the 50s and 60s might be the removal of the minimum wage structure. Some clubs survived it, others didn't. I suppose it depended on being in the right place at the right time.Edited by: EasternWolf

[JAIRDUCOCHET]

At the time of the signing ofAndy Greywe were on the verge of having a team to compete with the best but unfortunately the signings we made to complement and strengthen the team at the timenever achieved any thing like they should have, DAVETHOMAS , JOE GALLAGHER andI think it was ALAN BIRCH as well, someone correct me if I am wrong. These players just went through the motions and never improved the team , but the cash spent on them emptied the pot.

[SOA Wolf]

If memory serves the JI stand and the Steve Daley-Andy Gray transfers contributed. The SD money could have been better spent. Classic case of a short term deal over taking a long term gamble. Would have worked if the SD money had been used on a variety of players/infrastucture rather than chucking the whole lot at Villa.


BTW I will never tolerate a bad word said about Doog.


To effectively swap Steve Daley for Andy Gray was an excellent bit of business and helped set up the success we had in the next couple of years, even though at that time, SD was, in my opinion, one of the best midfielders I have ever seen at the Mol. Sadly, he totally lost his form at Man City and so the deal is always quoted in the "worst of all time" league.


DD was naive, and taken for a ride (and prevented SJH taking over earlier) as some of his subsequent business dealings have shown .....allegedly.





I agree DD got it wrong but at the same time he is human and did contribute with the best of intentions. It has always rankled with me that certain sections make it out that he was the villain. I met him a couple of times in that era, he certainly wasn't. Today he should be remembered for his contribution as a player.





HGW, could not agree with you more on this. I also knew DD very well and he once said to me that one day the real truth shall be known. Let's be honest the Bhatti's were the real villains and were very convincing. I had a lot to do with some of the things going on behind the scenes then and frankly some of what happened would not be believed if you saw them in Dream Team. I believe DD always did everything for the good of the club and was totally sucked into a situation he had not realised was as crooked until too late. As for the SD/Andy Gray deal, as HGW said we effectively paid £30,000 for one of best strikers of his day.


ID as for the current board, yes I have met Moxey several times (no more to be said), I have not been impressed with Rick's dealings and comments and you are right Manduca is a mystery man....considering we only have a three man board that is very concerning... we should know more about someone who is a third of the control of the club.

[astraltrader]

so apportioning blame to something so long ago is just guess work for me.


Not so different from the present then Essex!smileys/smiley2.gifsmileys/smiley36.gif








Ouch!

[Ogerp]

[QUOTE=Hazlegrove Wolf]


If memory serves the JI stand and the Steve Daley-Andy Gray transfers contributed. The SD money could have been better spent. Classic case of a short term deal over taking a long term gamble. Would have worked if the SD money had been used on a variety of players/infrastucture rather than chucking the whole lot at Villa.[QUOTE/]


Also remember a certain SJH saying at the time that the monies from Steve Daley should be used to pay off the bank for the Loan for the JI stand and not for Gray.Edited by: Ogerp

[stuj4z]

has anyone got any pics of the 50s super stadium that people keep mentioning?



ive looked everywhere and cant find anything.



from my point of view, only being 21 and from what ive seen since 1995.
the decline of the past hasnt been fully fixed because of a combination
of overspending on players who for whatever reason didnt perform, and
overall bad management.



corica, kalak, osborn, ketsbia, neistroj, taylor, slater, van der laan, gilkes, young, atkins, ferguson, etc etc etc.



the list is endless.

from my perspective all the things that happened in the past 60 years
have all had their own parts to play but the last 10 years have been
stagnant through a mixture of the above.



overpayed, underperforming players and managers

[Japan Wulf]

Could be wrong but I think I'm sure I read somewhere that crowd violence also lead to a drop in gates which wasunforseen when they built the John Ireland stand.


I went to most of the matches in the 81/82 season when we got relegated and even though a poor team is never going to fill the stadium we were experiencing gates of less than 12,000. Gates didn't improve all that much in the following season when Wolves finished second and were promoted. Only twice during that season did we Wolves get a gate of more than 20,000, the lowest being 11,856 against Boro.


The combination of high expenditure, poor form and stay away fans wasthe recepie for the disaster that followed.