Good old Wolves - usual story. If anyone says 'bad luck' or 'blessing in disguise' or all the usual stuff I will personally come round and strangle them. This was a missed opportunity, a huge missed opportunity when apart from West Brom no team stood out. We move on but our manager has had a poor season, and has made miistake after mistake. The football on the whole has been terrible. He is very lucky to be keeping his job. How many quality players will a mid table second division team be able to attract this summer? Over to you Mick the wonderful.
Florida Wolfey
04-05-2008, 16:17
Didn't see you on the comm. thread Golden...didn't fancy it?
Wednesbury Wolf
04-05-2008, 16:17
Yes good old Wolverhampton Bottlers are the NEARLY MEN yet again.To not even get to the playoffs with what Mcarthy had at his disposal is unforgiveable.
GoldenHorseshoe
04-05-2008, 16:18
Can't argue with that. Next season will be the same unless we have a major change of ideas, tactics, man management, etc. etc,
johnybig32
04-05-2008, 16:19
We are not, and for the forseeable future, will not be considered a mid table 1st division team.
Attracting players, wont be a problem in mind. Keeping on hte other hand may be...! But im hopeful and optimistic about where we are going.
Muscat
04-05-2008, 16:20
2 goals people, 2 goals. Reading comments on here you'd think we missed out by 9 points. A fit Kightly wouldn't have contributed AT LEAST 2 goals; more likely 3-4 times that.
Florida Wolfey
04-05-2008, 16:22
2 goals people, 2 goals. Reading comments on here you'd think we missed out by 9 points. A fit Kightly wouldn't have contributed AT LEAST 2 goals; more likely 3-4 times that.
You could say it came down to the missed penalty at Blackpool... quite comical that a missed penalty did for us :) but at the end of the day we weren't good enough and we now have chance to put it right for next season.
Edit: Seems there was no penalty at Blackpool after all. :rolleyes:
Welsh Y'am Y'am
04-05-2008, 16:22
We haven't been good enough over the season, that's all there is to it. It's only because it's been such an inconsistent Championship this season that we could have scraped into the playoffs! McCarthy needs to learn some lessons for next season else we will do little else but continue as a mediocre hoofball championship also-ran team.
grumpee
04-05-2008, 16:33
We're not good enough at the moment, that's for sure. We're moving in the right direction, but I'd still like to see a bit more nous and experience in the squad - especially centre midfield. That said, we couldn't have missed out by a finer margin today and that's what hurts. Yet again, looking back we dropped points that we shouldn't have against Coventry, Bristol City and Ipswich, as well as having had really dodgy pens given against us against Preston and Southampton that cost us. Had we had the know-how or luck to have improved any of those 5 results we'd be in the playoffs.
johnybig32
04-05-2008, 16:35
If If If If...
Davebull
04-05-2008, 16:38
I would say we have moved in the wrong direction actually !
Qualification for the Play offs was the minimum target, to not have reached it should mean a change in management.
Muscat
04-05-2008, 16:39
We're not good enough at the moment, that's for sure. We're moving in the right direction, but I'd still like to see a bit more nous and experience in the squad - especially centre midfield. That said, we couldn't have missed out by a finer margin today and that's what hurts. Yet again, looking back we dropped points that we shouldn't have against Coventry, Bristol City and Ipswich, as well as having had really dodgy pens given against us against Preston and Southampton that cost us. Had we had the know-how or luck to have improved any of those 5 results we'd be in the playoffs.
Excellent post. I really don't think we're that far off, 2-3 players at most. Hopefully with the experience of this season under their belts, our players won't make the same novicey mistakes that they have at times this season.
Stewarton Wolf
04-05-2008, 17:14
Excellent post. I really don't think we're that far off, 2-3 players at most. Hopefully with the experience of this season under their belts, our players won't make the same novicey mistakes that they have at times this season.
Thats what we said last season and he bought Eastwood - didn't play him, Elliott - injured but not good enough & and Ward theres the best part of £4m wasted.
Its ok because we are going up automatically next season - bye Mick
sjonnie
04-05-2008, 17:14
Excellent post. I really don't think we're that far off, 2-3 players at most. Hopefully with the experience of this season under their belts, our players won't make the same novicey mistakes that they have at times this season.
There are no novices in the team.
The team is weak in certain areas - it needs strengthening. If we don't address these obvious problems I see no reason to suggest we will do better next season.
rathmineswolf
04-05-2008, 17:52
This squad is close to being good enough. Forget about a new stadium and work on the team!
Taffywolf
04-05-2008, 17:57
But what everyone needs to remember is that this division will be better next season with the sides coming down.
Derby have been dire this season but have very wealthy owners and a good manager thats has got lesser sides out of the league.
Blues always do well and get out at 1st time of asking.
Fulham have alraedy got a far better side than us although they will lose a few with Al Fayed's money and Hodgsons know how will be a top side.
johnybig32
04-05-2008, 17:59
Fulham wont come down.
Reading will and they will lose a lot of their players.
We thought this league would be much stronger this year with the addition of the teams from the prem last year, didnt necessarily happen!
dr cool
04-05-2008, 21:28
2 goals people, 2 goals. Reading comments on here you'd think we missed out by 9 points. A fit Kightly wouldn't have contributed AT LEAST 2 goals; more likely 3-4 times that.
wait until next season we will $$$$ it,......:rolleyes:
dr:cool:
Stewarton Wolf
04-05-2008, 21:33
2 goals people, 2 goals. Reading comments on here you'd think we missed out by 9 points. A fit Kightly wouldn't have contributed AT LEAST 2 goals; more likely 3-4 times that.
The team is weak in certain areas - it needs strengthening. If we don't address these obvious problems I see no reason to suggest we will do better next season.
I don't know about that really. How are you defining novice? If you say a full season in the Championship is the minimum required to give a young player experience enough to play his potential and iron out rookie mistakes then of today's starting line up, one considered to by many to be Mick's best XI, Elokobi and Jarvis are outright novices - the entire left side of the team. If you say you need two seasons which, it could be argued, some players would to get enough knowledge to perform well in this league, then add Hennessey (barely over one season now), Foley, Keogh and Kightly to the list. That's over half the team.
Extend it to the squad (the ones that make it near the first team anyway) and you can add Collins, S Ward, Potter, D Edwards, Gibson and Eastwood. I don't think it's a coincidence that a good number of these players have been inconsistent throughout the season, but their quality in most cases isn't in much doubt at this level. Some are bound to adapt quicker than others - Kightly and Hennessey spring to mind. Doesn't mean the others aren't good enough, their performances just need underpinning by slightly more experienced players.
SsgWolf
04-05-2008, 23:59
…our manager has had a poor season, and has made mistake after mistake. The football on the whole has been terrible.
fair summary
under no circumstances should he keep his job.
Stewarton Wolf
05-05-2008, 00:01
I don't know about that really. How are you defining novice? If you say a full season in the Championship is the minimum required to give a young player experience enough to play his potential and iron out rookie mistakes then of today's starting line up, one considered to by many to be Mick's best XI, Elokobi and Jarvis are outright novices - the entire left side of the team. If you say you need two seasons which, it could be argued, some players would to get enough knowledge to perform well in this league, then add Hennessey (barely over one season now), Foley, Keogh and Kightly to the list. That's over half the team.
Extend it to the squad (the ones that make it near the first team anyway) and you can add Collins, S Ward, Potter, D Edwards, Gibson and Eastwood. I don't think it's a coincidence that a good number of these players have been inconsistent throughout the season, but their quality in most cases isn't in much doubt at this level. Some are bound to adapt quicker than others - Kightly and Hennessey spring to mind. Doesn't mean the others aren't good enough, their performances just need underpinning by slightly more experienced players.
So do you ignore the fact that Jarvis has played 2 seasons in the championship with Gillingham...
Elokobi is going to be the best leftback in the world...
Are we having another excuseathon, we are in this division to win promotion, not as a breaking ground for young players McCarthy knew this and as such he is the architect of his and the clubs downfall this season.
Muscat
05-05-2008, 00:02
Well he's going to so suck it up.
goldeneyed
05-05-2008, 00:28
Darren Wardinary, Stephen Wardinski (the well known winger), Calamity Collins, Darren Gibsbaby, Darren Pot luck, invisible Elliott, the Breen Express and co are the kinds of players that MM should have identified long ago as not good enough for a side seriously aiming for automatic promotion. That alone has cost us the play offs never mind the host of other errors. I don't believe stubborn Mick has learnt his lesson and if he perseveres with these folk (nothing personal guys but football is a ruthless and unforgiving business) then not much improvement will be possible and mediocrity will continue to be the order of the day with the occasional burst of sunlight provided by Hennessey, SEB and Kites. Anyhow MM is to be given more string to play with. So let's see what he does with it.
Hatch End Wolf
05-05-2008, 00:44
Morgan will be certifiable if he gives Mick any more money.
Mick will just buy some more dross. A new manager will have to start all over again in November and he'll want more of Morgan's money.
Stewarton Wolf
05-05-2008, 00:45
Morgan will be certifiable if he gives Mick any more money.
Mick will just buy some more dross. A new manager will have to start all over again in November and he'll want more of Morgan's money.
that's about it
lmuwolf
05-05-2008, 00:45
Having looked at the league table and the 6 teams above us, we only beat 1 of them in 12 attempts (Palace away). 7pts from 36 from the teams above us. Not good enough.
http://www.molineuxmix.co.uk/vb/images/misc/progress.gif
HarburyWolfinAus
05-05-2008, 00:51
Over the course of a season injuries, luck, suspensions etc generally even themselves out. Every other team is just as unlucky as we are. We are the 7th best side in the division. That's it. End of story. However, the margin between being 7th and being 6th (or even 3rd) has been very fine. We will refresh the squad in the closed season. Some will leave, some will join. I have every faith that we'll be a better side next season than we have been this one, and that will hopefully be the difference between nearly making the playoffs and making them (or even better).
I'm excited about the signings we will make. I'll most likely have never heard of most of them and they'll probably be good additions. I think Mick and the team have done well in the transfer market generally and I expect that to continue.
I'm looking forwards, not backwards. This season is over and it's time to move on. The board and management team will now be preparing for next season. The pre-season anticipation has now begun.
grumpee
05-05-2008, 01:35
So do you ignore the fact that Jarvis has played 2 seasons in the championship with Gillingham...
Elokobi is going to be the best leftback in the world...
Are we having another excuseathon, we are in this division to win promotion, not as a breaking ground for young players McCarthy knew this and as such he is the architect of his and the clubs downfall this season.
No, Jarvis' two seasons with Gillingham were in League One, both with a mid-table finish. I'm no apologist for the team; I said at the top of the thread that we aren't good enough. I'm just trying to keep a bit of balance despite today's crushing disappointment. If we're going to win promotion then we need a squad that performs consistently well, and a telling portion of this team and squad are too inexperienced to do that yet. Next year should see an improvement, as I think most of them have good enough quality to take us places in this division with proper management, development and motivation. Whether they're receiving that can be questioned under the current incumbent though. Are they good enough to step up a League? Probably not in most cases, but that's a problem we face if we ever get out of this hell-hole of a division.
Stewarton Wolf
05-05-2008, 01:47
No, Jarvis' two seasons with Gillingham were in League One, both with a mid-table finish. I'm no apologist for the team; I said at the top of the thread that we aren't good enough. I'm just trying to keep a bit of balance despite today's crushing disappointment. If we're going to win promotion then we need a squad that performs consistently well, and a telling portion of this team and squad are too inexperienced to do that yet. Next year should see an improvement, as I think most of them have good enough quality to take us places in this division with proper management, development and motivation. Whether they're receiving that can be questioned under the current incumbent though. Are they good enough to step up a League? Probably not in most cases, but that's a problem we face if we ever get out of this hell-hole of a division.
I think you will find you are wrong...
The second element is spot on
grumpee
05-05-2008, 02:03
I think you will find you are wrong...
The second element is spot on
Gillingham finished 16th in League One in 2006/7 and 14th in 2005/6. They were relegated from the Championship in 2004/5, when Jarvis turned professional and he was largely used as a sub for half a season. Sorry to be pedantic, but my line of reasoning relies on it (the fact that Jarvis is inexperienced at Championship level, not pedantry).
PeteWolf
05-05-2008, 02:09
In their line up today Palace had two 17 year olds and a 19 year old with 42 starts between the three of them. That's dealing with young, inexperienced players not the likes of Keogh, Jarvis, Elokobi or Foley all of whom have several seasons of league football behind them.
One of the 17 year olds (Victor Moses - ever heard of him? No I haven't!) started and scored after 10 minutes. It was his 9th Football League start and he played in a team that had the balls to go about and not just win a game they needed to, but do it in a convincing style.
McCarthy has had it relatively easy compared to Warnock. Keogh inexperienced/a novice? Today was the 181st competitive match that he has played in.
Including sub appearances Jarvis made his 150th appearance today (again) in a competitive game.
Even Hennessey has made 66 competitive appearances.
Lets try and keep this 'novice' thing in perspective.
Mugwump
05-05-2008, 02:34
Your wrong about jarvis grumpee, he played about 40 games for gillingham from 2003 until they got relegated in 2005. See the link below.
http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=36722
MK Panther
05-05-2008, 02:48
This is plain ridiculous, we missed out by goal difference of 2 after a full season. Hardly taking points off the top six was never going to help us.
grumpee
05-05-2008, 10:00
OK so Jarvis has 10 or so games for a struggling Gillingham side in 2003/4, sorry I missed that. Still, he's not vastly experienced at this level, so by my earlier hypothetical reasoning he still could qualify as a novice.
Remember, I'm just playing devil's advocate here and I think that there's a strong case to be made for the "good enough, old enough" argument that PeteWolf touches on, with Palace being the prime example. It'll be interesting to see how they fare next season if they stay in the Championship. Essentially this year the Wolves squad has definitely been improved, yet our overall performances have faltered. You've got to look to the management team as being culpable for this failure, however marginal the circumstances were by which we missed out on the play offs. Had we made it only to go out in the semis would most people be pleased with the season overall? The same arguments would be coming up.
Our expectations have shifted with the new owner and I personally think that McCarthy excels when managing without such pressure; he can use the underdog tag to motivate young players to good effect, giving them the confidence to play with the freedom we saw last year. He did the same thing in the Irish national job. Things haven't worked so well this time round though, and he's been exposed - tactically, motivationally, in terms of man management (you know who) and, essentially, by not knowing his best team for a large part of the season, so our results have been inconsistent - 11 wins at home says it all.
My overall point on this thread (McCarthy aside; that deserves its own) was meant to be an optimistic one. There's a definite disparity in the ages of the squad - we've the young potential (some of it already realised in Kightly and Hennessey) and the old guard (Craddock, Gray, Breen) that's meant to be the wise head on the young shoulders of the team, shoring up our play. This approach has come up short, and I think to get the balance right we need a few signings with a bit of know how at this level who are of the right age (27-30), technically proficient and good, solid, self-motivated professionals to get a good blend to take us places. Only D Ward potentially fitted the bill in terms of new signings last year, and he's not been a success. We need to look for (and I use them only because they come from the League winners, not to be inflammatory) the likes of Koren, Gera and Greening - all players in their prime - to add to our potentially good squad. Get a few players of that calibre in over the summer and things should shape up nicely; we're not that far off. As I said, whether McCarthy's the man to do this and lead us forward is the major question mark.
Stewarton Wolf
05-05-2008, 10:02
OK so Jarvis has 10 or so games for a struggling Gillingham side in 2003/4, sorry I missed that. Still, he's not vastly experienced at this level, so by my earlier hypothetical reasoning he still could qualify as a novice.
Remember, I'm just playing devil's advocate here and I think that there's a strong case to be made for the "good enough, old enough" argument that PeteWolf touches on, with Palace being the prime example. Essentially this year the Wolves squad has definitely been improved, yet our overall performances have faltered. You've got to look to the management team for this failure, however marginal the circumstances were by which we missed out on the play offs. I personally think that McCarthy excels when managing without expectation; he can use the underdog tag to motivate young players to good effect, giving them the confidence to play with the freedom we saw last year. Things haven't worked so well this time round though, and he's been exposed - tactically, motivationally, in terms of man management (you know who) and, essentially, by not knowing his best team.
Be interesting to see how Palace do next year if they stay in the Championship.
My overall point (McCarthy aside) is that there's a definite disparity in the ages of the squad - we've the young potential (some of it already realised in Kightly and Hennessey) and the old guard (Craddock, Gray, Breen) that's meant to be the wise head on the young shoulders of the team, shoring up our play. This approach has come up short, and I think to get the balance right we need a few signings with a bit of know how at this level who are of the right age (27-30), technically proficient and good, solid, self-motivated professionals to get a good blend. Only D Ward potentially fitted the bill in terms of new signings last year, and he's not been a success. We need to look for (and I use them only because they come from the League winners, not to be inflammatory) the likes of Koren, Gera and Greening - all players in their prime - to add to our potentially good squad.
40 games
As for the balance of the squad - its McCarthys fault he signed the players.
Mugwump
05-05-2008, 10:02
he wasnt vastly experienced at this level your right grumpee, but having played at this level he would have known what to expect. I`d play a few more of the young players, i just dont think micks got the bottle to do it.
grumpee
05-05-2008, 10:18
40 games
As for the balance of the squad - its McCarthys fault he signed the players.
10 in 2003/4, then another season, 04/5 as you say above. I edited my post slightly for clarity - you're right they're now Mick's players.
grumpee
05-05-2008, 10:21
Mugwump - what would be your expectations were more of the younger players given a chance?
Jack
05-05-2008, 14:28
2 goals people, 2 goals. Reading comments on here you'd think we missed out by 9 points. A fit Kightly wouldn't have contributed AT LEAST 2 goals; more likely 3-4 times that.
I admire your unwavering optimism, but how many times have we been drinking in last chance saloon this season? Everyone kept slipping up and we just never capitalised.
sjonnie
05-05-2008, 15:31
I don't know about that really. How are you defining novice?
Dictionary definition of novice = Beginner.
None in the Wolves team.
grumpee
05-05-2008, 17:24
So when a player's completed one game at Championship level he's no longer a beginner and knows all there is to know about life in the division? Also, by your literal logic, a striker who scored two all season would be a proven goalscorer.
PeteWolf
05-05-2008, 17:58
Sorry grumpee, but players shouldn't need extended periods of time to to get used to the Championship, they're either good enough or they aren't.
When managers talk about youngsters needing time, it's time to get used to the professional game and all the cynical tricks involved. All of our players will have learnt that in abundance at League 1 or 2 level (more than they ever will in the Championship due to poorer players resorting to dirty tricks). When they've had that (and the likes of Keogh, Foley, Jarvis, etc. have done), then it's just about making the step up, not learning new ways. Making the step up is just about playing at a higher level on a more consistent basis, a player should be used to that after no more than a dozen starts. If he's still struggling when he has the experience of well over 100 league games under his belt, then ability is the problem, not his age.
sjonnie
05-05-2008, 18:33
So when a player's completed one game at Championship level he's no longer a beginner and knows all there is to know about life in the division? Also, by your literal logic, a striker who scored two all season would be a proven goalscorer.
Those are your words not mine. Are you saying we have players that have only played one game at Championship level?
No you've got your logic wrong there. A striker is a player playing in a particular position - irrespective of how many goals he has scored.
grumpee
05-05-2008, 18:52
Surely maturity plays a part though? That's what I'm talking about, as much as anything else, in footballing terms. This affects application, concentration, motivation, tactical awareness, behaviour and discipline. The works. That's distinct from knowing a few tricks. With the increased expectancy around people expect our players to be the fully finished article in Championship terms, so we're consistently competitive. Fact is that Foley, Kightly, Hennessey, Keogh, Elokobi, Jarvis, Potter, S Ward, D Edwards and SEB are all only 21 - 23 and, I think, do need some more time to get used to the cut and thrust of the division and at the moment we're expecting too much for all of them to maintain form for a whole season. It's not a technical thing, as you say, but based on consistency. Some won't be able to adjust, and mistakes can never be wholly eradicated despite maturity and experience; they are in part human nature.
I'm just saying they all deserve a bit more time, patience and, most importantly, good management on and off the field.
grumpee
05-05-2008, 19:01
Those are your words not mine. Are you saying we have players that have only played one game at Championship level?
No you've got your logic wrong there. A striker is a player playing in a particular position - irrespective of how many goals he has scored.
Pretty facile argument; you know I didn't mean that. How is Elokobi, a 22 year old with just about a season at this level under his belt and one settling into a new team not a beginner at this level and at this club? In terms of his overall career he's a novice.
Mugwump
06-05-2008, 07:43
If we played more of the younger players i`d be happy with a mid table finish grumpee. The biggest problem this season for me hasnt been the fact we havent made the play offs, ( although i think we still should have expected this as a minimum ) its the fact we have spent good money on strengthening the squad and we actually look a worse football team than we did last season. I expected to see this team develop and progress not go backwards and have a worse season than we did with our weaker squad from last season.
