Can we actually go up this season...

[Professional]

...with our current defence?

As has been pointed out by certain posters, you don't necessarily need pacy central defenders to be in with a chance of going up- but are our full backs up to the job of protecting them?

It looks like Mick is after some cover for the LB position, but you get the feeling he is quite happy with what he has at present. I hope he is right.

Even if the defence isn't up to it, we will be in for some cracking games this season- win or lose.

[wwfc9]

think we do need xtra cover but lets not forget we did win alot of games 1-0 so defence was not that bad and hopefully we will score a few more best form of defence attack

[Anglian Wolf]

We certainly CAN go up this season but there is always an element of lottery about it.

For me, I'm just looking forward to a season of watching a young, passionate side giving their all and I'm trying not to think too much about promotion. I intend to enjoy the season and if it ends in the promise land then so much the better.

[Stewarton Wolf]

We certainly CAN go up this season but there is always an element of lottery about it.

For me, I'm just looking forward to a season of watching a young, passionate side giving their all and I'm trying not to think too much about promotion. I intend to enjoy the season and if it ends in the promise land then so much the better.
All the passion in the world won't address the lack of quality added to the defence, and despite you not wanting to think about promotion MM has said top two and the vast majority of people I speak to expect promotion. If anything will cost us then it will be the defence. I don't agree about not needing pace MM has assembled a side that will have to attack, so we need the insurance policy of pace at the back.

[dr cool]

4 3 we are going to win 4 3....

drc

[Deutsch Wolf]

I don't agree about not needing pace MM has assembled a side that will have to attack, so we need the insurance policy of pace at the back.

Just like Steve Bruce bought a load of strikers, and then played err...N'Gotty, Jaidi and Taylor at the back all season?

That's not to back up Steve Bruce, who's an absolute clown.

[Stewarton Wolf]

Just like Steve Bruce bought a load of strikers, and then played err...N'Gotty, Jaidi and Taylor at the back all season?

That's not to back up Steve Bruce, who's an absolute clown.

All the defenders were from the premiership

[we love jez moxey]

i'm agreeing with anglian wolf, i just want to enjoy it! I don't bloody care what happens, we have our pride back and that is important. Sir jack is my hero and it was mighty ironic that the year we were skint was the year that the pride came back. Our side is good enough to sweep aside anything in this division, and i think we will.

[The Bear]

Just to put some hard facts into this debate on the defence:

We were joint second in keeping clean sheets last season, level with Sunderland on 17 and one behind Birmingham on 18.

When keeping a clean sheet we had the best record in the division, winning all 17 games, and only scoring one less point (51) from those games than Birmingham's 18 clean sheets (52), and two more than Sunderland's 17 clean sheets (49).

Of the other two teams that finished above us, Derby kept 15 clean sheets and West Brom 13.

http://stats.football365.co.uk/2007/ENG/D1/clsht.html


So there you go. And that was with a back line that had no pace for the entire season apart from Mark Little, who everyone seems to have written off already.

You could counter that McNamara had a big influence which we'll miss (and I agree with), but we'll also gain strength with Darren Ward at CB.

Most on here seem to think that there will be at least one more defender signed before the season starts as well so that should strengthen the defence further still.

The one thing I think we'll miss most is Jackie McNamara.

[John]

Sir jack is my hero.
You have low standards.

[Mugwump]

i think the key to a good defence is getting defenders who can actually DEFEND!!!

[Devil's Slide Wolf]

That's not to back up Steve Bruce, who's an absolute clown.
And how do you know this.....?

[reanswolf]

I too am looking forward to the season, but i and most of my pals expect a play off place with this team , maybe defence and central midfield are good not quite top two quality tho.

[Anglian Wolf]

All the passion in the world won't address the lack of quality added to the defence, and despite you not wanting to think about promotion MM has said top two and the vast majority of people I speak to expect promotion. If anything will cost us then it will be the defence. I don't agree about not needing pace MM has assembled a side that will have to attack, so we need the insurance policy of pace at the back.

I don't think I said I wouldn't like to see us strengthen at the back. I believe we need to. We need a pacy CB and we are exposed at both full back positions save for Henry at RB. At very least we need a LB.

The question was about promotion and while a place outside of the top six would be close to devastating, I prefer not to demand a top two place just yet. We have buckled under that kind of pressure of expectation too many times in the past for my liking.

I am quite happy, though, for MM to put that kind of pressure on himself.

[ROVERT47]

If we finish 1st,2nd or win the play-offs,yes.

[Bradders]

and the vast majority of people I speak to expect promotion.

And therein lies as big a problem as the defence. Why do they expect this? Yes, it is our target and an achievable one at that, but to expect it to happen is just what we don't need right now.

Charlton, Watford, Sheff U and them lot down the road will all have the same target as us. So at least 2 teams from the 5 of us will have our dreams dashed. And another half a dozen teams will hope to gatecrash the promotion party too.

The expectations of the crowd have been something that opposition managers have utilised in years gone by, but for once that didn't happen last year and how refreshing that was!

All the above is not to say that I don't think the defence does need strengthening if we are to push for the top 2! There's still time to do it and no need to panic. I just worry that the expectations are spiralling again and it will do us more harm than good.

[UNCLE REMUS]

Let's take the season as it comes and hope for and improvement on last season.

A lot of the so called "bigger" sides in the division had a bad season last season, I would think that they may make more of an effort this. I think all three relagated sides will be there.

Going to be tough, but it always is, would feel much better if the full back issue was sorted and we bought a good "engine room" midfielder. We cannot afford to have players in that position that do not perform week in, week out.

[Flitwick Wolf]

All the defenders were from the premiership

Edwards
Breen
Craddock
Clapham

All played in the Premiership.

Means jack $$$$e.

[Stewarton Wolf]

Edwards
Breen
Craddock
Clapham

All played in the Premiership.

Means jack $$$$e.
Edwards couldn't hold down a place in a premiership side
Breen + Premiership = Relegation
Craddock 2 seasons = Relegation
Clapham - probably the only player with sustained success in the premier

[Nashie]

Yes we 'can' go up, but we haven't got a right to expect that it will happen.

We made some excellent progress last season but now we will find out whether the players simply punched above their weight after being written off by so many people at the beginning of last season.

If we made the playoffs again this season I would be happy with that.

We have a lot of potential and young players will improve with more experience. Its an exciting time, but I don't have the same expectations that I had under a succession of big-spending managers.

[glasgowwolf]

I Personally do not think we need any more defenders. I would like to See Craddock, and Breen let go and replaced with youger players, this is not an urgent requirement more a mid term plan.

it annoys me that so many people have written off
Little - England U18 full back
Dave Jones
Charlie Mulgrew

All of whom could be Full back at this club (hopefully International) for years to come.

1st Choice RB - Little
2nd Choice RB - Henry
3rd Choice Edwards

1st Choice LB - Mulgrew
2nd Choice LB - Jones
3rd Choice LB - lee Collins
4th Choice LB - Clapham

Centre halfs

Ward
N Collins
Edwards
Craddock
L Collins
Breen

Enough cover to get us out of this division.
When we go up we will need centre halfs Edwards, craddock, and Breen no where near good enough

I'll reserve judgment on the others

[djackl]

Clapham - probably the only player with sustained success in the premier


Which is why playing in the Premier League means jack $$$$e

@glasgow - You've got a hard job to persuade us not only that Dave Jones has been unfairly written off, but also has made a switch to fullback from management!

[The Bear]

it annoys me that so many people have written off

Dave Jones
Understandable as he's not played for a while...

[Flitwick Wolf]

Edwards couldn't hold down a place in a premiership side
Breen + Premiership = Relegation
Craddock 2 seasons = Relegation
Clapham - probably the only player with sustained success in the premier


Exactly my point mate.

[robbeec]

wasnt dave jones written off when we sacked him:rolleyes::D

[JR's Boots]

[quote=Professional;430561]...with our current defence?

No.

Recruitment of better players than we've currently got in the back 4 is essential if we want a top 2 finish.

[The Bear]

...with our current defence?

No.

Recruitment of better players than we've currently got in the back 4 is essential if we want a top 2 finish.
Please read my post further up which proves with FACTS it is possible to go up with the current defence.

[Stewarton Wolf]

It is possible to get promoted with our defence, Sunderland went up with whitley and robinson in central midfield. Its just I am not confident that we will. Jackie is a big loss who hasn't been replaced, if last season was anything and their careers in general craddock and breen are not good enough, so we get down to 3 centre halves 1 Ward - couldn't hold down a place in a poor palace side, collins a rookie and edwards a resonable defender who for some reason is mistaken as a fullback.

[The Bear]

Any two from Collins, Edwards, Craddock and Ward are good enough for the centre of defence IMO. Little and Henry are good enough for RB. It's just the LB spot that we need a bit more experience and cover in. Sort that out with another signing and we'll be fine in defence.

Also, the defence won't have to be as good or better this season because we should be scoring more goals and winning more games that way.

[EasternWolf]

Bear - you're a reasonable man so i'll ask you .. do you think Mulgrew is capable of developing into a good player. like Little he is still very young

[The Bear]

I didn't see enough of him to make a judgement to be honest but he looked solid enough. He had a good reputation in Scotland. He sounds a little like Naylor, good with the ball but a little suspect defensively. I'd imagine he could well develop into a good player, hopefully this season.

He gets injured though and we have Dan Jones who McCarthy has never played at LB to my recollection and Lee Collins who's a youth player.

Plus, what happens if Mulgrew gets a suspension and at the same time Jarvis picks up an injury. There'd be a lot of re-jigging just to cover the left side which teams would then identify as a weak link.

[wolf of sedgley]

Could do with signing someone who can play either left or right back imo.

[The Bear]

Not many of those about though.

[wanderer24]

Forget all that crap. Get down the Molineux 11th August, get behind the team and hopefully we will get three points.
Then we can think about the next game.

[JR's Boots]

Please read my post further up which proves with FACTS it is possible to go up with the current defence.

Bear

The stats you quote as FACT that our defence was as good as any other last season don't tell the whole story. Early on with a weak forward line, we often played one up front, packed the midfield, thereby protecting the defence and tried (often successfully) to nick 1-0 wins. Don't also forget the immense contribution of Murray to the clean sheets. With Oakes in goal it would have been a different story

Later on after the recruitment of Kites, Keough and Ward, the team opened up and we played a more expansive game. It was hear against teams with a strong attack that we began to be exposed.

I've been watching Wolves for 30 years and my eyes don't deceive me yet. We looked horribly slow at the back and teams can exploit this. We are also terribly vulnerable at set pieces.

It may be that we score enough goals for it not to matter but I can see a lot of high scoring games next season but why take chances with our current back line when we will have the funds to change it?

[Wolv3nsam]

Our defence was arguably our best asset for most of the season. If you ask me Breen only started mucking it up because he was exhausted; he can't last a whole season like he used to, no way. I think right now we need to address the LB and RB positions, I reckon Ward and Collins will do a sterling job at centre-half this season. We'll definitely need to replace McNamara.

Strikers have always been our problem in the long-run.

If you ask me the last time we were well-of striker wise was when Bully was around. Either that or the year we got promoted and Miller had about 20+ goals, Ndah wasn't far off either.

[nimrod]

Bear

The stats you quote as FACT that our defence was as good as any other last season don't tell the whole story. Early on with a weak forward line, we often played one up front, packed the midfield, thereby protecting the defence and tried (often successfully) to nick 1-0 wins. Don't also forget the immense contribution of Murray to the clean sheets. With Oakes in goal it would have been a different story

Later on after the recruitment of Kites, Keough and Ward, the team opened up and we played a more expansive game. It was hear against teams with a strong attack that we began to be exposed.

I've been watching Wolves for 30 years and my eyes don't deceive me yet. We looked horribly slow at the back and teams can exploit this. We are also terribly vulnerable at set pieces.

It may be that we score enough goals for it not to matter but I can see a lot of high scoring games next season but why take chances with our current back line when we will have the funds to change it?

Having just read through the thread, you beat me to it with your reply. When you defend deep in numbers, pace becomes less important. I recall Paul Butler doing a great marking job on van Nistlerooy for that very reason. In a more even game or when where you have more of the possession teams will be counter attacking with pacy forwards and lots of space. Hence the need for pace. I think you've summarised last season well.

Doesn't mean the defenders we have can't do a job but I also fear they'll be found wanting for pace in more than a few games.

[Wolv3nsam]

Having just read through the thread, you beat me to it with your reply. When you defend deep in numbers, pace becomes less important. I recall Paul Butler doing a great marking job on van Nistlerooy for that very reason. In a more even game or when where you have more of the possession teams will be counter attacking with pacy forwards and lots of space. Hence the need for pace. I think you've summarised last season well.

Doesn't mean the defenders we have can't do a job but I also fear they'll be found wanting for pace in more than a few games.

I'd rather have a defender who can read the game well than one who is pacey but mucks it up. McNamara managed to keep toe-to-toe with Koumas and he's not exactly Speedy Gonzalez, but he's a very clever defender and that's what I want more than anything.

[fullmoon]

If you were to look closely last season,we were goal shy and MM has looked into this problem by bringing in Elliot and Easwood to fight for places with our existing forwards.

The same can be said once he sorted the defence by bringing in extra covers to fight for places.It's the young and hungry mentalities that will ultimately win over.

[Mr Wolf]

I'd rather have a defender who can read the game well than one who is pacey but mucks it up. McNamara managed to keep toe-to-toe with Koumas and he's not exactly Speedy Gonzalez, but he's a very clever defender and that's what I want more than anything.

Agree.

Look at the opposite end of the pitch, Craig Davies was very quick but could not do alot else. I'd rather have the slower better defender than the quick not very good type.

It's alright wanting both quality and pace but they cost about £4m at least.

[Reach For The Sky]

I agree with JR's Boots and nimrod, there were a lot of teams who exposed our lack of pace in defence last season. Lack of pace can also lead to forwards not being closed down quickly enough, Kevin Philips loved playing against our defence and exploited that extra yard of space fully.

[JR's Boots]

Agree.

Look at the opposite end of the pitch, Craig Davies was very quick but could not do alot else. I'd rather have the slower better defender than the quick not very good type.

It's alright wanting both quality and pace but they cost about £4m at least.

So we identify a problem with goal scoring and spend nigh on £3M to correct it (Eastwood, Jarvis and Elliot), identify a similar problem with shipping goals in our new attacking system and other than £500K on Ward do nothing about it. Where's the logic in that? If new personnel are required to correct defensive failings then get on with it. If MM believes that Breen and Craddock, Edwards at RB and Mulgrove at LB are the answer, we are in for a rocky season at the back.

[jackfieldwolf]

Regarding the defence debate. It is worth considering the latter end of last season, where the 1-0 scorelines seemed to desert us. During the last 11 games we conceeded 23 goals and scored 19, keeping only one clean sheet in the process. It can be argued that Henry and Edwards injuries contributed to the instability. Since the end of last season we have lost Mc Namara, and as of today only added Ward. I'm not going to pant wet by suggesting we are in the **** unless there are more defensive signings to come, indeed for all we know there could be a number of new defenders about to sign, but one thing is for certain, if we are to be promoted, and last seasons end of season defensive trend is continued, we are going to need a lot more goals in the 'for' column.
although this is probably a superfluous worry considering our new strike force :D

[Mr Wolf]

Most of you are just referring to/remembering the Blues (3-2) and Albion playoff game (3-2) as your basis of our need for a "pacy defender". They were probably the 2 best teams in the league. For most of the season we did not conceed alot of goals at all through our lack of pace at the back.

[Hatch End Wolf]

Possibly right regarding pace against several of the poorer teams, Mr. Wolf. but I do remember seeing goals conceeded through slack marking, poor heading ability and I recall having no faith in Breen / Craddock or the full-backs ( except McNamara ).

[Reach For The Sky]

Most of you are just referring to/remembering the Blues (3-2) and Albion playoff game (3-2) as your basis of our need for a "pacy defender". They were probably the 2 best teams in the league. For most of the season we did not conceed alot of goals at all through our lack of pace at the back.

They are just two teams where it stood out the most due to the good finishing of their forwards, we were also exposed at the back by such great sides as Leicester, Norwich, Preston and Sheffield Wednesday. Southampton were able to score at will at our place and it was Murray to the rescue in a lot of instances.

The best spell of the season for the defence was when the old boys were out and Edwards and Collins took over. Assuming that Ward and Collins would be first choice in the middle, we could do with a bit of pace at right/left back and a bit more consistency than Little offers.

[The Bear]

If we'd have had just one more clean sheet we would have had statistically the best defence in the division.

[Reach For The Sky]

If we'd have had just one more clean sheet we would have had statistically the best defence in the division.

I wonder how much of that was down to having the best goalkeeper in the division. I lost count of the number of times Murray kept us in games, stopping what looked like certain goals and racing off his line to beat strikers to the ball.

[Stewarton Wolf]

I wonder how much of that was down to having the best goalkeeper in the division. I lost count of the number of times Murray kept us in games, stopping what looked like certain goals and racing off his line to beat strikers to the ball.

Spot on, Murray was worth 20 points single handedly, if the defence was that good why was he the championship goalkeeper of the year.

[wolf of sedgley]

What the $$$$ do we pay Murray to do?

[Stewarton Wolf]

What the $$$$ do we pay Murray to do?
I note your point and as a goalkeeper he did he his job - however you cannot deny that he was left hopelessly exposed on many instances by the so called defence. At a rate that if repeated is likely to cost us dearly.