Irish Wolf
25-08-2005, 22:40
Which is the stronger side?. . .
View Full Version : Current Side V Play-Off Winners?
Guests
25-08-2005, 22:42
i give up, what's the answer?
Kenny-11
25-08-2005, 22:59
I would say West Ham are stronger.....
Hereford Wolf
25-08-2005, 23:12
Seriously....
This team is a lot stronger.......but it doesn't mean we will go up.
The reason for that is that life and football can be a $$$$$$$$$$$$....
Although at least I've seen us win 3 times at Wembley !
Thank you God !
This team is a lot stronger.......but it doesn't mean we will go up.
The reason for that is that life and football can be a $$$$$$$$$$$$....
Although at least I've seen us win 3 times at Wembley !
Thank you God !
Black Suit
25-08-2005, 23:16
Play-off team. No doubts at all.
SSW
25-08-2005, 23:25
Six of the playoff winning side are still first team regulars:
Naylor
Cameron
Lescott
Ince
Miller
Kennedy
Murray would be my preferred choice of keeper. We've lost Butler but
I'm not sure that Edwards, Craddock or Gyepes are better than him.
McNamara looks like a direct replacement for the retired Irwin.
Ricketts replaces Newton like-for-like. We've scarificed Kennedy's
wingplay for a more central role with Cameron sometimes coming back in
to precious little effect. Seol blows hot and cold. Ince is two years
older, Anderton looks promising on his first excellent showing.
Up front we've lost Blake. A fully fit and in-form Ganea would be an
improvement on him, Cort is about on a par, Clarke nowhere near, Ndah
is more direct and is a better finisher but can't be relied on to stay
fit.
Nowadays we might have a bit more tactical nous and we look fitter, but
we also tend to over-elaborate and lack a real cutting edge. Too often
we don't hit the opposition where it hurts.
Alex Rae was on the bench at Cardiff, Olofinjana comes a very poor second best.
Conclusion: We haven't really made much progress from our playoff
campaign when we finished fifth considering most people have us down as
promotion certs this season. Despite what you might read on this messageboard, we haven't exactly come on leaps and bounds.
Edited by: SSW
Naylor
Cameron
Lescott
Ince
Miller
Kennedy
Murray would be my preferred choice of keeper. We've lost Butler but
I'm not sure that Edwards, Craddock or Gyepes are better than him.
McNamara looks like a direct replacement for the retired Irwin.
Ricketts replaces Newton like-for-like. We've scarificed Kennedy's
wingplay for a more central role with Cameron sometimes coming back in
to precious little effect. Seol blows hot and cold. Ince is two years
older, Anderton looks promising on his first excellent showing.
Up front we've lost Blake. A fully fit and in-form Ganea would be an
improvement on him, Cort is about on a par, Clarke nowhere near, Ndah
is more direct and is a better finisher but can't be relied on to stay
fit.
Nowadays we might have a bit more tactical nous and we look fitter, but
we also tend to over-elaborate and lack a real cutting edge. Too often
we don't hit the opposition where it hurts.
Alex Rae was on the bench at Cardiff, Olofinjana comes a very poor second best.
Conclusion: We haven't really made much progress from our playoff
campaign when we finished fifth considering most people have us down as
promotion certs this season. Despite what you might read on this messageboard, we haven't exactly come on leaps and bounds.
Edited by: SSW
wolfan
25-08-2005, 23:42
Good summary by SSW, I dont really think theres much to choose between
this side and 3 seasons ago, although from memory the squad seemed to
be stronger, if not the first team. One thing I would say though, in a
pressure game like the play-off final, I think my money would be on
DJ's men, there may have been a lot of criticisms of his teams, but
they generally rose to the occasion when needed to in big games,
(Newcastle cup, Reading play-offs, Sheffield play-offs, Manure in the
prem, etc.) not sure I'd be so confident going into those games now,
like SSW says, we lack that cutting edge.
this side and 3 seasons ago, although from memory the squad seemed to
be stronger, if not the first team. One thing I would say though, in a
pressure game like the play-off final, I think my money would be on
DJ's men, there may have been a lot of criticisms of his teams, but
they generally rose to the occasion when needed to in big games,
(Newcastle cup, Reading play-offs, Sheffield play-offs, Manure in the
prem, etc.) not sure I'd be so confident going into those games now,
like SSW says, we lack that cutting edge.
19th Holer
25-08-2005, 23:46
One thing I would say though, in a pressure game like the play-off final, I think my money would be on DJ's men, there may have been a lot of criticisms of his teams, but they generally rose to the occasion when needed to in big games, (Newcastle cup, Reading play-offs, Sheffield play-offs, Manure in the prem, etc.) not sure I'd be so confident going into those games now, like SSW says, we lack that cutting edge.
Not for six big games at the end of the season before they didn't.
Not for six big games at the end of the season before they didn't.
wolfan
25-08-2005, 23:50
True, but the same could have been said of Hoddles side last season,
where we should have got to the play-offs if we had played to half of
our potential, it might not have been as spectacular, but it was just
as much a failure in my eyes.
where we should have got to the play-offs if we had played to half of
our potential, it might not have been as spectacular, but it was just
as much a failure in my eyes.
19th Holer
25-08-2005, 23:55
We weren't 11 points clear last season !
Goldwolf
26-08-2005, 00:02
True, but the same could have been said of Hoddles side last season, where we should have got to the play-offs if we had played to half of our potential, it might not have been as spectacular, but it was just as much a failure in my eyes.
What a bizarre comment. Last season we improved, but not by enough. How can you compare this to blowing an 11 point lead?
What a bizarre comment. Last season we improved, but not by enough. How can you compare this to blowing an 11 point lead?
wolfan
26-08-2005, 00:05
We weren't 11 points clear last season !
Maybe not, but we were just 7 points off West Ham in 6th last season,
and remembering back to some of the games like Watford, Gillingham and
Sunderland at home, QPR, Leeds, Leicester and Coventry away, all games
where we should have walked over terrible opposition. If we had played
to how we ought to in just half of those games then we would have made
it, if anthing Hoddle was more to blame. For DJ it was a sudden
collapse, where last year it was gradual over a long time. All history
now I suppose, and its old ground thats been gone over many a time, but
both times we failed to achieve what we should have.
Edited by: wolfan
Maybe not, but we were just 7 points off West Ham in 6th last season,
and remembering back to some of the games like Watford, Gillingham and
Sunderland at home, QPR, Leeds, Leicester and Coventry away, all games
where we should have walked over terrible opposition. If we had played
to how we ought to in just half of those games then we would have made
it, if anthing Hoddle was more to blame. For DJ it was a sudden
collapse, where last year it was gradual over a long time. All history
now I suppose, and its old ground thats been gone over many a time, but
both times we failed to achieve what we should have.
Edited by: wolfan
Guests
26-08-2005, 00:06
DJs team was far superior. It had a defence for a start. *DJ absent-mindedly lost it though, and nobody has bothered to look for it sincesmileys/smiley5.gif.
It also had a desire and a cutting edge. We are looking toothless, more so this season than last - and I think it's not really down to Cort or Miller, but because Ricketts smileys/smiley11.gifis very, very lightweight and we're losing out in midfield too often.
Obviously we're trying to walk it in the net too,which doesn't help against the Chris Morgans and Chris Luckettis of this world.
It also had a desire and a cutting edge. We are looking toothless, more so this season than last - and I think it's not really down to Cort or Miller, but because Ricketts smileys/smiley11.gifis very, very lightweight and we're losing out in midfield too often.
Obviously we're trying to walk it in the net too,which doesn't help against the Chris Morgans and Chris Luckettis of this world.
wolfan
26-08-2005, 00:08
What a bizarre comment. Last season we improved, but not by enough. How can you compare this to blowing an 11 point lead?
As said above, both times we failed in what should have been achievable
goals. Its easy to remember the Reading/Ipswich/Sheffield games after
we'd blown any chance of the play-offs, but the performances in games
before that, whilst we still had a chance cant be excused, even with
just 50% effort put in during some of those games, the points total
could have been made up.
As said above, both times we failed in what should have been achievable
goals. Its easy to remember the Reading/Ipswich/Sheffield games after
we'd blown any chance of the play-offs, but the performances in games
before that, whilst we still had a chance cant be excused, even with
just 50% effort put in during some of those games, the points total
could have been made up.
Guests
26-08-2005, 00:16
What a bizarre comment. Last season we improved, but not by enough. How can you compare this to blowing an 11 point lead?
As said above, both times we failed in what should have been achievable goals. Its easy to remember the Reading/Ipswich/Sheffield games after we'd blown any chance of the play-offs, but the performances in games before that, whilst we still had a chance cant be excused, even with just 50% effort put in during some of those games, the points total could have been made up.
Beware: Everything in the garden is now Rosy. Having doubts about Hoddle or his teams performance marks you out as a traitor on this board.
You will be universally vilified until it all falls flat because our squad is too weak, and we basically dont have quality in defence.
If and when it falls flat the happy-clappers will be Glen's harshest critics
As said above, both times we failed in what should have been achievable goals. Its easy to remember the Reading/Ipswich/Sheffield games after we'd blown any chance of the play-offs, but the performances in games before that, whilst we still had a chance cant be excused, even with just 50% effort put in during some of those games, the points total could have been made up.
Beware: Everything in the garden is now Rosy. Having doubts about Hoddle or his teams performance marks you out as a traitor on this board.
You will be universally vilified until it all falls flat because our squad is too weak, and we basically dont have quality in defence.
If and when it falls flat the happy-clappers will be Glen's harshest critics
19th Holer
26-08-2005, 00:20
So from a position 18 points inferior the disappointment and expectation was the same ?
I don't think so.
Hoddle improved us from 15th to 9th with someone elses failing squad.
I don't think so.
Hoddle improved us from 15th to 9th with someone elses failing squad.
19th Holer
26-08-2005, 00:23
DJs team was far superior. It had a defence for a start. *DJ absent-mindedly lost it though, and nobody has bothered to look for it sincesmileys/smiley5.gif.
It also had a desire and a cutting edge. We are looking toothless, more so this season than last - and I think it's not really down to Cort or Miller, but because Ricketts smileys/smiley11.gifis very, very lightweight and we're losing out in midfield too often.
Obviously we're trying to walk it in the net too,which doesn't help against the Chris Morgans and Chris Luckettis of this world.
It should have been far superior the money spent on it but it wasn't.
It also had a desire and a cutting edge. We are looking toothless, more so this season than last - and I think it's not really down to Cort or Miller, but because Ricketts smileys/smiley11.gifis very, very lightweight and we're losing out in midfield too often.
Obviously we're trying to walk it in the net too,which doesn't help against the Chris Morgans and Chris Luckettis of this world.
It should have been far superior the money spent on it but it wasn't.
SSW
26-08-2005, 00:27
It should have been far superior the money spent on it but it wasn't.
smileys/smiley5.gif
19th lager? smileys/smiley2.gif
smileys/smiley5.gif
19th lager? smileys/smiley2.gif
wolfan
26-08-2005, 00:29
So from a position 18 points inferior the disappointment and expectation was the same ?
I don't think so.
Hoddle improved us from 15th to 9th with someone elses failing squad.
The disappointment might not have been to the same extent, because it
wasnt such a sudden failure, it was gradual, but the bottom line is the
same, both DJ and Hoddle failed where they should have had their teams
performing better and achieving their goals. To simply say we improved
isnt telling the entire story, because we could have (and should have)
improved far more prior to mid-April. To keep on track with the topic,
Hoddles team only performed last season when there wasnt the pressure
of needing to perform, would the 2003 side have done better? They
learnt from the 01/02 $$$$-up, so it seems a fair arguement that they
could have got us in the play-offs from the same position as when
Hoddle took over.
I don't think so.
Hoddle improved us from 15th to 9th with someone elses failing squad.
The disappointment might not have been to the same extent, because it
wasnt such a sudden failure, it was gradual, but the bottom line is the
same, both DJ and Hoddle failed where they should have had their teams
performing better and achieving their goals. To simply say we improved
isnt telling the entire story, because we could have (and should have)
improved far more prior to mid-April. To keep on track with the topic,
Hoddles team only performed last season when there wasnt the pressure
of needing to perform, would the 2003 side have done better? They
learnt from the 01/02 $$$$-up, so it seems a fair arguement that they
could have got us in the play-offs from the same position as when
Hoddle took over.
19th Holer
26-08-2005, 00:33
It should have been far superior the money spent on it but it wasn't.
smileys/smiley5.gif
19th lager? smileys/smiley2.gif
No SSW, the port is out as we speak but a fairly dry night !
I just think we as supporters should be looking at the positives of a new(ish) manager and his emerging team.
smileys/smiley5.gif
19th lager? smileys/smiley2.gif
No SSW, the port is out as we speak but a fairly dry night !
I just think we as supporters should be looking at the positives of a new(ish) manager and his emerging team.
Goldwolf
26-08-2005, 00:34
There is an awful lot of supposition there wolfan.
If we stick with the actual facts, failing to make the play-offs last year after flirting with relegation was nowhere near as traumatic as blowing an 11 point lead and automatic promotion to out deadliest rivals.
If we stick with the actual facts, failing to make the play-offs last year after flirting with relegation was nowhere near as traumatic as blowing an 11 point lead and automatic promotion to out deadliest rivals.
Guests
26-08-2005, 00:39
we could have (and should have) improved far more prior to mid-April.
Dont forget that some of the performances last season were among the worst we have produced since before Graham Turner.
The watford and gillingham games were so bad that they affected my feelings for the club. There was no desire shown at all. Many of the players who put in thise performances can never redeem themselves in my eyes.
Strangely, the DJ promotion team also put in some real shockers I think Derby on New Years Day was one one of those.
Dont forget that some of the performances last season were among the worst we have produced since before Graham Turner.
The watford and gillingham games were so bad that they affected my feelings for the club. There was no desire shown at all. Many of the players who put in thise performances can never redeem themselves in my eyes.
Strangely, the DJ promotion team also put in some real shockers I think Derby on New Years Day was one one of those.
19th Holer
26-08-2005, 00:41
[/QUOTE]
The disappointment might not have been to the same extent, because it wasnt such a sudden failure, it was gradual, but the bottom line is the same, both DJ and Hoddle failed where they should have had their teams performing better and achieving their goals. To simply say we improved isnt telling the entire story, because we could have (and should have) improved far more prior to mid-April. To keep on track with the topic, Hoddles team only performed last season when there wasnt the pressure of needing to perform, would the 2003 side have done better? They learnt from the 01/02 $$$$-up, so it seems a fair arguement that they could have got us in the play-offs from the same position as when Hoddle took over.
[/QUOTE]
Only Palace have ever managed to get into the POs from the position we found ourselves in when GH took over and that was courtesy of a last minute West Ham goal at Wigan !
To expect him to suddenly transform DJs misfiring team into aside that could immediately hit title winning form (that was the requirement to bridge the gap) was a little optimistic, forget the spin that comes with a new appointment. Judge him on this season if you are still impatient.
Myself, I'll give him a lot longer. The squad is looking stronger by the game.
The disappointment might not have been to the same extent, because it wasnt such a sudden failure, it was gradual, but the bottom line is the same, both DJ and Hoddle failed where they should have had their teams performing better and achieving their goals. To simply say we improved isnt telling the entire story, because we could have (and should have) improved far more prior to mid-April. To keep on track with the topic, Hoddles team only performed last season when there wasnt the pressure of needing to perform, would the 2003 side have done better? They learnt from the 01/02 $$$$-up, so it seems a fair arguement that they could have got us in the play-offs from the same position as when Hoddle took over.
[/QUOTE]
Only Palace have ever managed to get into the POs from the position we found ourselves in when GH took over and that was courtesy of a last minute West Ham goal at Wigan !
To expect him to suddenly transform DJs misfiring team into aside that could immediately hit title winning form (that was the requirement to bridge the gap) was a little optimistic, forget the spin that comes with a new appointment. Judge him on this season if you are still impatient.
Myself, I'll give him a lot longer. The squad is looking stronger by the game.
Guests
26-08-2005, 00:41
There is an awful lot of supposition there wolfan.
If we stick with the actual facts, failing to make the play-offs last year after flirting with relegation was nowhere near as traumatic as blowing an 11 point lead and automatic promotion to out deadliest rivals.
Ah yes. The facts.
If we had GH all season and achieved the same points average that we managed during the fabled unbeaten run, then we would still not have made the play-offs.
If we stick with the actual facts, failing to make the play-offs last year after flirting with relegation was nowhere near as traumatic as blowing an 11 point lead and automatic promotion to out deadliest rivals.
Ah yes. The facts.
If we had GH all season and achieved the same points average that we managed during the fabled unbeaten run, then we would still not have made the play-offs.
wolfan
26-08-2005, 00:41
Is it GW? I dont disagree with you on the traumatic bit, but just the
way I look at it is that both managers failed and should have done
better. I think Liquidator touched on it that people are far too
willing to jump on anything possible to beat DJ with, yet excuse
Hoddle. I also agree with 19th Holer, that we should be looking forward
not back, but the tables of both 01/02 and 04/05 still show the same
thing, and thats failure. Some of the games last season were dreadful,
truly awful, and with this topic in mind, then I think we would have
seen a better finish had Hoddle had the 2003 side to manage.
way I look at it is that both managers failed and should have done
better. I think Liquidator touched on it that people are far too
willing to jump on anything possible to beat DJ with, yet excuse
Hoddle. I also agree with 19th Holer, that we should be looking forward
not back, but the tables of both 01/02 and 04/05 still show the same
thing, and thats failure. Some of the games last season were dreadful,
truly awful, and with this topic in mind, then I think we would have
seen a better finish had Hoddle had the 2003 side to manage.
19th Holer
26-08-2005, 00:44
There is an awful lot of supposition there wolfan.
If we stick with the actual facts, failing to make the play-offs last year after flirting with relegation was nowhere near as traumatic as blowing an 11 point lead and automatic promotion to out deadliest rivals.
Ah yes. The facts.
If we had GH all season and achieved the same points average that we managed during the fabled unbeaten run, then we would still not have made the play-offs.
......which would still have been an improvement on what went before.
If we stick with the actual facts, failing to make the play-offs last year after flirting with relegation was nowhere near as traumatic as blowing an 11 point lead and automatic promotion to out deadliest rivals.
Ah yes. The facts.
If we had GH all season and achieved the same points average that we managed during the fabled unbeaten run, then we would still not have made the play-offs.
......which would still have been an improvement on what went before.
wolfan
26-08-2005, 00:45
Only Palace have ever managed to get into the
POs from the position we found ourselves in when GH took over and that
was courtesy of a last minute West Ham goal at Wigan !
To expect him to suddenly transform DJs misfiring team into
aside that could immediately hit title winning form (that was the
requirement to bridge the gap) was a little optimistic, forget the spin
that comes with a new appointment. Judge him on this season if you are
still impatient.
Myself, I'll give him a lot longer. The squad is looking stronger by the game.
I'm not debating that we should be looking forward now, just that imo,
whatever other teams had done before, we should have done better in
enough games to see us in the play-offs last season.
POs from the position we found ourselves in when GH took over and that
was courtesy of a last minute West Ham goal at Wigan !
To expect him to suddenly transform DJs misfiring team into
aside that could immediately hit title winning form (that was the
requirement to bridge the gap) was a little optimistic, forget the spin
that comes with a new appointment. Judge him on this season if you are
still impatient.
Myself, I'll give him a lot longer. The squad is looking stronger by the game.
I'm not debating that we should be looking forward now, just that imo,
whatever other teams had done before, we should have done better in
enough games to see us in the play-offs last season.
Goldwolf
26-08-2005, 00:45
Ah yes. The facts.
If we had GH all season and achieved the same points average that we managed during the fabled unbeaten run, then we would still not have made the play-offs.
And that still wouldn't have been as disappointing as blowing an 11 point lead to out local rivals.
What is your point exactly? Running the club down or trying to be clever? You're not doing a very good job at either to be honest.
If we had GH all season and achieved the same points average that we managed during the fabled unbeaten run, then we would still not have made the play-offs.
And that still wouldn't have been as disappointing as blowing an 11 point lead to out local rivals.
What is your point exactly? Running the club down or trying to be clever? You're not doing a very good job at either to be honest.
19th Holer
26-08-2005, 00:48
I think a total change intactics and team formation last season meant a quick fix couldn't be applied. We probably didn't appreciate this when watching the likes of the Rotherham,Gillingham and Watford games because they were disappointing performances.
Guests
26-08-2005, 00:50
......which would still have been an improvement on what went before.
Yes it would. I agree.
But the fact is that this season we have slightly improved the defence, and we now dont appear to have a clue what our midfield should be, and I expect our strikers return to be worse than last season.
I think we are a play-off contender, but most people on this board are acting as if we are already promoted
'GH is wise to save the money for next season'
That is over-confidence in the extreme if you ask me.
Yes it would. I agree.
But the fact is that this season we have slightly improved the defence, and we now dont appear to have a clue what our midfield should be, and I expect our strikers return to be worse than last season.
I think we are a play-off contender, but most people on this board are acting as if we are already promoted
'GH is wise to save the money for next season'
That is over-confidence in the extreme if you ask me.
19th Holer
26-08-2005, 00:54
......which would still have been an improvement on what went before.
Yes it would. I agree.
But the fact is that this season we have slightly improved the defence, and we now dont appear to have a clue what our midfield should be, and I expect our strikers return to be worse than last season.
I think we are a play-off contender, but most people on this board are acting as if we are already promoted
'GH is wise to save the money for next season'
That is over-confidence in the extreme if you ask me.
As competition for team places hots up I would expect to see a better cutting edge develop. We've only played 4 league games so far......
Yes it would. I agree.
But the fact is that this season we have slightly improved the defence, and we now dont appear to have a clue what our midfield should be, and I expect our strikers return to be worse than last season.
I think we are a play-off contender, but most people on this board are acting as if we are already promoted
'GH is wise to save the money for next season'
That is over-confidence in the extreme if you ask me.
As competition for team places hots up I would expect to see a better cutting edge develop. We've only played 4 league games so far......
Goldwolf
26-08-2005, 00:55
I think we are a play-off contender, but most people on this board are acting as if we are already promoted
I don't think this is true, where are all these threads about us walking the league?
There is some confidence that we have a decent squad, some concerns too I feel. I don't think anyone serious thinks this league is anything other than very competitive.
I don't think this is true, where are all these threads about us walking the league?
There is some confidence that we have a decent squad, some concerns too I feel. I don't think anyone serious thinks this league is anything other than very competitive.
Guests
26-08-2005, 00:57
Moxly has already gone on record to say if we get promoted, Hoddle will be given funds and that Rick as said he would use his own money as well. So any money saved by Hoddle using his contacts to get quality loan signings instead of buying, just means more funds for when we are promoted
Goldwolf
26-08-2005, 01:01
So one person's comment counts as most people does it?
You'd have to find similar quotes from several hundred people to actually have a valid point.
You'd have to find similar quotes from several hundred people to actually have a valid point.
19th Holer
26-08-2005, 01:01
Moxly has already gone on record to say if we get promoted, Hoddle will be given funds and that Rick as said he would use his own money as well. So any money saved by Hoddle using his contacts to get quality loan signings instead of buying, just means more funds for when we are promoted
There's always one smileys/smiley2.gif
There's always one smileys/smiley2.gif
wolfan
26-08-2005, 01:02
I think a total change intactics and team
formation last season meant a quick fix couldn't be applied. We
probably didn't appreciate this when watching the likes of the
Rotherham,Gillingham and Watford games because they were disappointing
performances.
Perhaps, but then wouldnt that make Hoddle guilty of not playing in the
most effective style? The games you mention werent just disappointing,
they were awful, some of the worst performances probably since the
mid-eighties, surely the first duty of any manager of any club is
to win games, not try to play around with formations that the players
arent used to, thats what training and pre-season is for. Long term it
might make us better off, but is casting aside a genuine chance of the
play-offs and promotion justifiable for that?
Lets just hope we arent having this discussion in 12 months time!
Edited by: wolfan
formation last season meant a quick fix couldn't be applied. We
probably didn't appreciate this when watching the likes of the
Rotherham,Gillingham and Watford games because they were disappointing
performances.
Perhaps, but then wouldnt that make Hoddle guilty of not playing in the
most effective style? The games you mention werent just disappointing,
they were awful, some of the worst performances probably since the
mid-eighties, surely the first duty of any manager of any club is
to win games, not try to play around with formations that the players
arent used to, thats what training and pre-season is for. Long term it
might make us better off, but is casting aside a genuine chance of the
play-offs and promotion justifiable for that?
Lets just hope we arent having this discussion in 12 months time!
Edited by: wolfan
Goldwolf
26-08-2005, 01:05
Long term it might make us better off, but is casting aside a genuine chance of the play-offs and promotion justifiable for that?
I guess it depends if you think we had a genuine chance of the play-offs last year. You clearly do, but given the mess we were in I was just glad when we got enough points to get us clear of relegation.
I guess it depends if you think we had a genuine chance of the play-offs last year. You clearly do, but given the mess we were in I was just glad when we got enough points to get us clear of relegation.
Guests
26-08-2005, 01:05
I chose the most ridiculous one. There's plenty of others thinking along the same lines believe me.
19th Holer
26-08-2005, 01:09
I think a total change intactics and team formation last season meant a quick fix couldn't be applied. We probably didn't appreciate this when watching the likes of the Rotherham,Gillingham and Watford games because they were disappointing performances.
Perhaps, but then wouldnt that make Hoddle guilty of not playing in the most effective style? The games you mention werent just disappointing, they were awful, some of the worst performances probably since the mid-eighties, surely the first perogative of any manager of any club is to win games, not try to play around with formations that the players arent used to, thats what training and pre-season is for. Long term it might make us better off, but is casting aside a genuine chance of the play-offs and promotion justifiable for that?
Lets just hope we arent having this discussion in 12 months time!
At that time NOT losing was the first thing to ensure, none of those displays were worse than losing to a depleted 10 man Gillingham team away. You can't just turn a tap on to change relegation form into promotion form.
Perhaps, but then wouldnt that make Hoddle guilty of not playing in the most effective style? The games you mention werent just disappointing, they were awful, some of the worst performances probably since the mid-eighties, surely the first perogative of any manager of any club is to win games, not try to play around with formations that the players arent used to, thats what training and pre-season is for. Long term it might make us better off, but is casting aside a genuine chance of the play-offs and promotion justifiable for that?
Lets just hope we arent having this discussion in 12 months time!
At that time NOT losing was the first thing to ensure, none of those displays were worse than losing to a depleted 10 man Gillingham team away. You can't just turn a tap on to change relegation form into promotion form.
Goldwolf
26-08-2005, 01:09
I chose the most ridiculous one. There's plenty of others thinking along the same lines believe me.
I'm sure there are some, but most people?
There are just as many people who think we will fail.
I'm sure there are some, but most people?
There are just as many people who think we will fail.
wolfan
26-08-2005, 01:11
I guess it depends if you think we had a genuine chance of the
play-offs last year. You clearly do, but given the mess we were in I
was just glad when we got enough points to get us clear of relegation.
I do, (obviously!), we were just 7 points off them in the end, how many
games should we have won last season against seriously poor opposition.
Watford, Gillingham, QPR, Leicester, Leeds, Coventry, etc. all there
for the taking, if we could have just put in an acceptable performance
in 4 of those, then we'd have been there, I dont think that that was
beyond us, because in my view I'm not talking about playing well, or
title winning form, just basic standards that you expect any player to
put in.
play-offs last year. You clearly do, but given the mess we were in I
was just glad when we got enough points to get us clear of relegation.
I do, (obviously!), we were just 7 points off them in the end, how many
games should we have won last season against seriously poor opposition.
Watford, Gillingham, QPR, Leicester, Leeds, Coventry, etc. all there
for the taking, if we could have just put in an acceptable performance
in 4 of those, then we'd have been there, I dont think that that was
beyond us, because in my view I'm not talking about playing well, or
title winning form, just basic standards that you expect any player to
put in.
wolfan
26-08-2005, 01:14
At that time NOT losing was the first thing to ensure, none of those
displays were worse than losing to a depleted 10 man Gillingham team
away. You can't just turn a tap on to change relegation form into
promotion form.
If the teams we were playing were good, then perhaps I'd agree with
you, but they werent, they were awful. Im not going to start making
excuses for the first half of the season, there arent any, but
afterwards, if we are talking about the current side and their manager,
then things should have been better. Theres games which we drew, where
there arent excuses for not winning.
Edited by: wolfan
displays were worse than losing to a depleted 10 man Gillingham team
away. You can't just turn a tap on to change relegation form into
promotion form.
If the teams we were playing were good, then perhaps I'd agree with
you, but they werent, they were awful. Im not going to start making
excuses for the first half of the season, there arent any, but
afterwards, if we are talking about the current side and their manager,
then things should have been better. Theres games which we drew, where
there arent excuses for not winning.
Edited by: wolfan
Essex Wolf
26-08-2005, 08:34
Back to the original question I have to say the current squad is better IMV than the promotion winning one on paper but it remains to be seen as to whether they can better the old ones achievement.
Stan Cutlass
26-08-2005, 08:40
The play-off team, ironically, played it's best football the season we threw it away to West Brom.
I think the current squad is more talented, but until they produce a performance like DJ's team did against Newcastle, my vote goes with the play-off winners.
I think the current squad is more talented, but until they produce a performance like DJ's team did against Newcastle, my vote goes with the play-off winners.
Salop Wolf
26-08-2005, 09:17
I think SSW sums it up well in terms of players, but I think the current manager is light years ahead of Dave Jones.
SSW
26-08-2005, 10:17
I think SSW sums it up well in terms of players, but
I think the current manager is light years ahead of Dave Jones.
It's all about results. 7 points from the first 12 available is an
unremarkable/steady start but is an improvement on the ratio we were
picking up points under Hoddle last term.
If we lose against Cardiff tomorrow (Heaven forbid) then Hoddle's and Jones's records will be similar this season.
I have constantly said that the improvement under Hoddle has been
widely overstated. Yes, he's made us difficult to beat and we pass the
ball quite nicely, but we have been playing nice football in areas that
don't hurt the opposition and it goes without saying that our cutting
edge needs sharpening up to a great degree if we are to mount a
meaningful promotion challenge.
I think the current manager is light years ahead of Dave Jones.
It's all about results. 7 points from the first 12 available is an
unremarkable/steady start but is an improvement on the ratio we were
picking up points under Hoddle last term.
If we lose against Cardiff tomorrow (Heaven forbid) then Hoddle's and Jones's records will be similar this season.
I have constantly said that the improvement under Hoddle has been
widely overstated. Yes, he's made us difficult to beat and we pass the
ball quite nicely, but we have been playing nice football in areas that
don't hurt the opposition and it goes without saying that our cutting
edge needs sharpening up to a great degree if we are to mount a
meaningful promotion challenge.
bone roach
26-08-2005, 10:47
I have constantly said that the improvement under Hoddle has been widely overstated. Yes, he's made us difficult to beat and we pass the ball quite nicely, but we have been playing nice football in areas that don't hurt the opposition and it goes without saying that our cutting edge needs sharpening up to a great degree if we are to mount a meaningful promotion challenge.
Agree 100%. We were somewhat unfortunate against Soton but nevertheless, did not create enough chances against a very poor side on the day. We were fortunate to take all 3 points against Palace despite playing some excellent football at times (the first goal especially).With arguably one of the best centre-halves in the division and someone like Jackie joining us with his 11 years of European experience, we should be tight at the back. But an injury to either (or heaven forbid Jo being sold) and that would no doubt change.
So what do we have to break down oppositions? Hull were tough to master despite our superior possession whilst Palace fortunately continued to come at us allowing us a little more space going forward. We quite possibly have the best player to unlock defences in Anderton whilst for a while last season, Seol provided this role. However, Kennedy, Cameron, Ricketts, Seyi etc. do not appear to be the answer. So, we need to see an on-form Seol and an injury-free Anderton and Ndah(coupled with occasional sublime passing/crossing from Kennedy and Ricketts and Camsmaking occasional runs through the centre from deep) in order to provide most of our creativity.
Not ideal IMO.
Agree 100%. We were somewhat unfortunate against Soton but nevertheless, did not create enough chances against a very poor side on the day. We were fortunate to take all 3 points against Palace despite playing some excellent football at times (the first goal especially).With arguably one of the best centre-halves in the division and someone like Jackie joining us with his 11 years of European experience, we should be tight at the back. But an injury to either (or heaven forbid Jo being sold) and that would no doubt change.
So what do we have to break down oppositions? Hull were tough to master despite our superior possession whilst Palace fortunately continued to come at us allowing us a little more space going forward. We quite possibly have the best player to unlock defences in Anderton whilst for a while last season, Seol provided this role. However, Kennedy, Cameron, Ricketts, Seyi etc. do not appear to be the answer. So, we need to see an on-form Seol and an injury-free Anderton and Ndah(coupled with occasional sublime passing/crossing from Kennedy and Ricketts and Camsmaking occasional runs through the centre from deep) in order to provide most of our creativity.
Not ideal IMO.
Goldwolf
26-08-2005, 11:23
It's all about results. 7 points from the first 12 available is an unremarkable/steady start but is an improvement on the ratio we were picking up points under Hoddle last term.
I think given that 3 of the 4 teams we faced are expected to be challenging for promotion I think is slightly better than 'unremarkable/steady' to be fair. Also, last season we had5 points after 7 games, so I'm not sure how failing to beat Cardiff will make the records camparable (unless I misunderstood your point)?
I do agree with you that about the lack of cutting edge though, it is a concern and one that hopefully we can address. The games for the remainder of this month and next are against mainly hum-drum opposition, so I hope that this will be the opportunity to improve our ruthlessness in front of goal. If we don't then it will confirm that our worries were genuine sadly.
I think given that 3 of the 4 teams we faced are expected to be challenging for promotion I think is slightly better than 'unremarkable/steady' to be fair. Also, last season we had5 points after 7 games, so I'm not sure how failing to beat Cardiff will make the records camparable (unless I misunderstood your point)?
I do agree with you that about the lack of cutting edge though, it is a concern and one that hopefully we can address. The games for the remainder of this month and next are against mainly hum-drum opposition, so I hope that this will be the opportunity to improve our ruthlessness in front of goal. If we don't then it will confirm that our worries were genuine sadly.
SSW
26-08-2005, 11:58
Also, last season we had5 points after 7 games,
so I'm not sure how failing to beat Cardiff will make the records
camparable (unless I misunderstood your point)?
Someone said they thought Hoddle was far better than Jones. I was
simply saying that if Cardiff beat us tomorrow both managers records
for the season will be very similar.
so I'm not sure how failing to beat Cardiff will make the records
camparable (unless I misunderstood your point)?
Someone said they thought Hoddle was far better than Jones. I was
simply saying that if Cardiff beat us tomorrow both managers records
for the season will be very similar.
Guests
26-08-2005, 12:09
One of the frightening things about the Hull game is how Peter Taylor got the better of the tactical battle.
After 20 minutes, it was clear that our team is infinitely superior to theirs. Then they replaced andrews and started to take control of the midfield.
By the mid-point in the second half, Hull were giving as good as they were getting, and I thought it was last season all over again.
My worry is that the hum-drum opposition that GW mentions is precisely where we usally fail, and I dont see anything in the current manager or team that suggests we won't see the same thing again.Edited by: Liquidator
After 20 minutes, it was clear that our team is infinitely superior to theirs. Then they replaced andrews and started to take control of the midfield.
By the mid-point in the second half, Hull were giving as good as they were getting, and I thought it was last season all over again.
My worry is that the hum-drum opposition that GW mentions is precisely where we usally fail, and I dont see anything in the current manager or team that suggests we won't see the same thing again.Edited by: Liquidator
Goldwolf
26-08-2005, 12:18
One of the frightening things about the Hull game is how Peter Taylor got the better of the tactical battle.
After 20 minutes, it was clear that our team is infinitely superior to theirs. Then they replaced andrews and started to take control of the midfield.
Andrews went off injured, so I don't think you can claim that it was down to tactical genius on Taylor's part. The real difference was when Elliott came on, so you'd have to question why Taylor didn't play him from the start. smileys/smiley2.gif
After 20 minutes, it was clear that our team is infinitely superior to theirs. Then they replaced andrews and started to take control of the midfield.
Andrews went off injured, so I don't think you can claim that it was down to tactical genius on Taylor's part. The real difference was when Elliott came on, so you'd have to question why Taylor didn't play him from the start. smileys/smiley2.gif
