View Full Version : Can someone tell me why...?
johnybig32
27-05-2007, 18:21
Why does everyone seem to be dismissing Jay?
MM has changed his attitude, work rate and overall play. He's now much fitter and there's no doubt he has talent and i think that he will be able to link up well with Keogh.
Is it just me who thinks this? Maybe MM announcing he wants strikers is a ploy to try to get even more out of Jay?
whitemouse75
27-05-2007, 18:26
Why does everyone seem to be dismissing Jay?
because every close season we have to have a $$$$fest about at least one of the top 3 strikers from the league below us,
IT'S THE LAW.
andy-in-seat-190
27-05-2007, 18:31
Why does everyone seem to be dismissing Jay?
MM has changed his attitude, work rate and overall play. He's now much fitter and there's no doubt he has talent and i think that he will be able to link up well with Keogh.
Is it just me who thinks this? Maybe MM announcing he wants strikers is a ploy to try to get even more out of Jay?
Cos there is better out there - we need a centre forward who will lead the line not sit on his arse and winge!
johnybig32
27-05-2007, 18:33
He did that at the start and then changed and scored some important, and stunning goals throughout the season for us...
wolf of sedgley
27-05-2007, 18:37
Cos there is better out there - we need a centre forward who will lead the line not sit on his arse and winge!
What a myth.
However, even though Jay is one of the best players at the club, we still need another striker.
Hatch End Wolf
27-05-2007, 18:41
Because he's talented and has all the attributes required to make a top striker....except he generally can't be a***d. Not just with us but with every club he's been with.
Maybe Big Mick is the manager to finally get Bothroyd to play to his potential, but in the meanwhile most of us would be happier if we signed a consistant goalscorer. It would be one hell of a gamble to start the season with only Jay as our main striker alongside Keogh.
Devonwolf
27-05-2007, 18:54
Because he's talented and has all the attributes required to make a top striker....except he generally can't be a***d. Not just with us but with every club he's been with.
Maybe Big Mick is the manager to finally get Bothroyd to play to his potential, but in the meanwhile most of us would be happier if we signed a consistant goalscorer. It would be one hell of a gamble to start the season with only Jay as our main striker alongside Keogh.
Spot on
RoffeyWolf
27-05-2007, 19:10
I think He'll be a great asset from the bench next season.
RichRalph
27-05-2007, 19:27
Jay is probably the most naturally gifted player at the club. His attitude and fitness may have improved, but he still lacks that killer desire and passion, that ability to lose the ball and fight to get it back.
When he receives a pass a yard behind him, instead of stopping, turning and trying his hardest to get the ball (as Keough would) he choses to pull a face and throw his arms up in the ait like a spoiled kid.
Jay could be a world beater, but sadly, I, and a host of people with far more knowledge of the game, don't think he will be.
quirky_birky
27-05-2007, 19:31
MM has changed his attitude, work rate and overall play. He's now much fitter and there's no doubt he has talent and i think that he will be able to link up well with Keogh.
If only that were true. Certainly Mick has got some good performances from Bothroyd, but there have been plenty of games where he has pretty much gone through the motions. I'm not writing him off - he has shown that he has real ability and strength and could work well alongside Keogh. However, I think that McCarthy has his work cut out trying to get the best out of him game after game, and we need other attacking options to keep him on his toes.
Because he's talented and has all the attributes required to make a top striker....except he generally can't be a***d.
Spot on....and unfortunatley he showed this in the biggest game of the season a few Wednedays back !
gaz kford
27-05-2007, 20:04
Spot on....and unfortunatley he showed this in the biggest game of the season a few Wednedays back !
Quite right mate. And more goals came from Midfield(George) than Bothroyd.
Hatch End Wolf
27-05-2007, 20:05
It would be great for the club if Big Mick could get Bothroyd to play consistantly but as Quirky has said, dispite some good performances there have been too many games where he's just gone through the motions.
Next season is a big one for the club, we can't take the risks with players we took last year, when basically Big Mick had to just grab anyone who was available ( and cheap! ).
To the Jay Bothroyd fan club I can only say, if your boy is that good how come there is no queue of clubs offering money for him?
whitemouse75
27-05-2007, 20:12
To the Jay Bothroyd fan club I can only say, if your boy is that good how come there is no queue of clubs offering money for him?
when was the last time we had a queue of clubs offering money for any of our players?
Next season is a big one for the club, we can't take the risks with players we took last year, when basically Big Mick had to just grab anyone who was available ( and cheap! ).
And therein lies MM's biggest challenge this Summer.
He has to find a "young and hungry" striker with a proven track record to resolve ,not only our goalscoring issues, but fill the sacred No 9 shirt !
Rather him than me !
Oh and a quick,"young and hungry" centre back in the mould of Jo !
gaz kford
27-05-2007, 20:17
when was the last time we had a queue of clubs offering money for any of our players?Thing's will change now. Because we have stopped buying hasbeens. ;)
when was the last time we had a queue of clubs offering money for any of our players?
Kightly, Murray , Lescott
whitemouse75
27-05-2007, 20:29
Kightly, Murray , Lescott
really? who has bid for any of these 3? apart from everton?
Fair enough....kind of struggled after Lescott to be honest !:o.....now if you base your question on rumours,I think I have a case !;)
wanderer24
27-05-2007, 20:38
MM has probably brought about the most hungry consistent level of performance of Jay's career. Sadly, i think everyone can see there's still a little chunk of application missing. We all know if he's firing consistently that he is pure class, but there is this feeling that he will never deliver. Either way we need genuine competition for places and that means two quality players for each position and clearly we need four quality strikers.
Either way we need genuine competition for places and that means two quality players for each position and clearly we need four quality strikers.
:eek:...we have only got £30 million !;)
Welsh Y'am Y'am
27-05-2007, 20:45
I've come to the conclusion that Bothroyd is a luxury player. He drops to deep to be a goal-scoring centre forward. He likes to receive the ball about 40 yards out and run with it as if he wants to do it all himself. Keogh constantly flicks the ball on for him, only to find that Bothroyd hasn't anticipated where it's going to go because Bothroyd would rather Keogh headed it to his feet.
Ward on the other hand makes the runs that an out-and-out centre forward does, which is why we got a good goal return from him during our winning period.
I'm not writing Bothroyd off, I think you need 4 quality strikers to do well over the course of a season, but we definitely need a natural goalscorer.
To be honest, I'm more worried about that fact people have seemingly written Ward off.
wanderer24
27-05-2007, 20:52
Ward's not written off for me, the lad has way more to come.
whitemouse75
27-05-2007, 21:06
Fair enough....kind of struggled after Lescott to be honest !:o.....now if you base your question on rumours,I think I have a case !;)
:D:D
Beastier
27-05-2007, 22:28
I don't think it can be argued he has the talent but we need somebody that will deliver - or at least do their best to deliver - every week and we can't bank on that from Both.
A good player to bring in mid-season after he's not been first choice for a while and needs to prove himself again. On his day - particularly in this division -a definate match winner, just doesn't do it often enough
I dont think he has been written off and i agree that Mick does seem to have got more out of him than most of his other clubs have
Not doubting the ability but like others have said the fact that he has had a **** load of clubs already at his age indicates where his faults are
yes he has got better as the season went on and still has a part to play, BUT even when he is bothered he still isnt the prolific goalscorer/goal poacher that we need at the club
Personally ive still only seen ONE top notch performance from Bothroyd out of 35+ games attended this year...First half at Palace away he was simply unplayable
If he could reproduce that 45 mins week in week out, then in all honesty he wouldn't be playing for us and Arsenal would never have released him as a youngster.. Unfortunately for Jay and Us is that its a very big IF
Perhaps he will benefit from a full preseason and Real competition for his place from a top quality forward
wolfie smith
28-05-2007, 08:39
there are players in sunday league with as much talent as bothroyd, they didnt use it either, he has got away with it and had so many clubs in a short time doesnt this prove he will never change.
we cannot affford to carry players if we are to be serious title contenders, for me, bothroyd is the type of player we'd have signed under mcghee and taylor, well known name doesnt deliver. if he proves us all wrong brilliant...i dont see it happening.
quirky_birky
28-05-2007, 09:02
I dont think he has been written off and i agree that Mick does seem to have got more out of him than most of his other clubs have
Not doubting the ability but like others have said the fact that he has had a **** load of clubs already at his age indicates where his faults are
I used to work with a lad who got on with some of the Coventry players - he reckoned that Bothroyd seemed to think that he was "it". Hopefully he's starting to realise, after so many clubs have let him go, that he's not. I think McCarthy has been good for Jay, and will hopefully will make him realise that he's been wasting his talent and he'll make the most of his remaining playing days. If not then I could see him dropping down to League 1 level. Are the parking spaces at the Bescott large enough for a Bentley?
Bothroyd wont ever be a good player. He has the ability to be one, he doesnt have the heart or drive to be one.
EasternWolf
28-05-2007, 10:28
Well Keogh or Kenny Miller he's not for sure. He doesnt chase about like a headless chicken. He just likes to drop off the ball and the game. for periods. I think its part of his game. That makes him excellent when there's a lot of movement around him ..keogh, kightly, ward, etc, but when its not working for them either he does look lazy simply because he doesn't have that over-exhuberance. Having said that we need a twenty plus a year striker, two if possible. We should be asking question about Keogh as well. He should also be a twenty a season man.
Well Keogh or Kenny Miller he's not for sure. He doesnt chase about like a headless chicken. He just likes to drop off the ball and the game. for periods. I think its part of his game. That makes him excellent when there's a lot of movement around him ..keogh, kightly, ward, etc, but when its not working for them either he does look lazy simply because he doesn't have that over-exhuberance. Having said that we need a twenty plus a year striker, two if possible. We should be asking question about Keogh as well. He should also be a twenty a season man.
but keogh hasnt played at this level before so is still adjusting.. Keogh isnt and never will be a 20 goal a season striker
N. Herts Wolf
28-05-2007, 10:31
:eek:...we have only got £30 million !;)
I assume that that represents the minumum he has to invest. I doubt if there is anything in the contract to stop him putting in £40m or £50m. ;)
Brizzlewolf
28-05-2007, 11:27
Bothroyd will never be a twenty plus man which is what we'll need at least one of to get out of this division. He'll score some great $$$$ off goals but not enough of them. As others have said great to have on the bench as an option. Keogh will get a few but don't expect him to be leading scorer, he works too hard supporting for that.
We have to get a "proven" goal scorer, even if that might mean someone taking a step down from the prem.
Uncle Festa
28-05-2007, 11:51
I bet the same people slagging Bothroyd off are the same who thought Miller was a great forward. Just because Miller ran around a lot (normally in positions that don't hurt the opposition like left back and on the wing) he endeared himself to a lot of Wolves fans, even though he is the biggest sulker Ive ever seen at Wolves. Yes, Bothroyd can improve on the workrate side of his game, and I would agree that this doesn't come naturally to him, but McCarthy's comments regarding how well Bothroyd trained when he was out of the team only confirms to me that he has the right attitude and can/will deliver when playing a season fully fit. Yes, in an ideal World we could do with an extra forward to increase competition, but it needs to be a very good player to improve the options we currently have at our disposal.
EasternWolf
28-05-2007, 16:42
I like Keogh. I also watched him playing for Ireland and he was completely out of his depth. He also has some way to go towards being a great striker. On the other hand, Bothroyd is the complete striker ..his problems are about application. I think it is more important to get the right partnerships at this stage ... different partnerships ...Keogh/Bothroyd is one of them ..Keogh/Sharp we've heard about ... Maybe Sharp and Bothroyd or Ward...
johnybig32
29-05-2007, 16:42
Keogh, Bothroyd, Ward...and who will the other be to enable us to have four top quality strikers?
I think Jay will have a very important role to play next year...
Keogh, Bothroyd, Ward...and who will the other be to enable us to have four top quality strikers?
I think Jay will have a very important role to play next year...
I am sorry but only one of them is top quality, and even he won't score that many.
Keogh is a great player to have up front because he will setup so many goals next season, he is a very very good player.
Bothroyd - plays when he feels like it. He isn't top quality, he shows fleeting glimpses but thats about it.
Ward - He isn't top quality, he might get better over time and is worth keeping in the squad but to suggest he is a top quality striker is very very wrong.
If we'd had Philips, Ellington and Kamara in our squad we would have scored many more goals last season than we did.
In my opnion we need 2 good strikers to compete for automatic promotion next season. If Eastwood and Sharpe turned up I would be very happy.
johnybig32
29-05-2007, 16:49
How about Walker from Bristol ROvers? Out of contract and has scored 23 goals this year, and is young and a "big" striker too...different to everyone we already have...?
I doubt both of those players will be here.
Visage Wolf
29-05-2007, 16:50
I suspect that 90% of MM posters wouldnt recognise Sharp or Eastwood if they bumped into them in the street.
But they get mentioned all the time so they must be brilliant, right?
johnybig32
29-05-2007, 17:01
Do you think that MM will just go for the "obvious"
ant_wolf
29-05-2007, 17:28
I think Jay has the ability to be a top striker for us like said before lacking some passion at times but if anyone can turn him MM can we have had a lot worse down here
MobNet Wolf
29-05-2007, 17:43
Bothroyd is 3x the player Keogh is.
Ill go onto the pitch and run and run. Keogh is immensely fit, but couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo.
If we had put Bothroyd next to a player who had scored 30+ goals this season, you would've raved about him, even if his performances were identical.
Keogh & Bothroyd are 2 prime examples of foil strikers, who can complement a goalscorer. Keogh is the one type, the runner etc. Bothroyd is the other, the strong, skillfull, wondergoal scorer.
Can you play them both? Probably not. Although I reckon Bothroyd would be a good midfielder.
The thing I like about JB is that when he is playing, you always know something special could happen. I find that entertaining, one of the reasons for enjoying the match.
He scored 6 goals in 3 matches a month and a half ago. So who is to say that he can't be the goalscorer?
Oh and for the people who said he didn't turn up at the Hawthorns....$$$$$$$$. Our only threat, won countless flick ons despite being costantly fouled and was probably more visible than all our players bar Seyi. Keogh didn't turn up for that one.
Hatch End Wolf
29-05-2007, 19:49
It's all a matter of opinion. Most fans think Bothroyd can do it but won't bother consistantly, his fan club think he's wonderful.
As there are no stories anywhere in the media, regarding a queue of clubs wanting to buy him, I would say that the rest of football are dubious about Jay as well!
Deutsch Wolf
29-05-2007, 19:52
Where were the queues of clubs trying to sign Karl Henry 12 months ago? Is he crap as well?
Reach For The Sky
29-05-2007, 20:30
The thing I like about JB is that when he is playing, you always know something special could happen. I find that entertaining, one of the reasons for enjoying the match.
He actually gets shots from free kicks on target and makes the opposing goalkeeper earn his living, how many of our free kick takers could we say that about in the recent past?
Bothroyd, kightly and Keogh get me up out of my seat when they get the ball, Hoddle's players used to make me sit down with my head in my hands.
Walker from bristol isnt young, he is about 28 i think. He used to play for villa.
How about Walker from Bristol ROvers? Out of contract and has scored 23 goals this year, and is young and a "big" striker too...different to everyone we already have...?
I doubt both of those players will be here.
He's about as young as i am.
http://www.soccerbase.com/players_details.sd?playerid=9688
wolves85nb
30-05-2007, 07:39
Bothroyd is 3x the player Keogh is.
Ill go onto the pitch and run and run. Keogh is immensely fit, but couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo.
If we had put Bothroyd next to a player who had scored 30+ goals this season, you would've raved about him, even if his performances were identical.
Keogh & Bothroyd are 2 prime examples of foil strikers, who can complement a goalscorer. Keogh is the one type, the runner etc. Bothroyd is the other, the strong, skillfull, wondergoal scorer.
Can you play them both? Probably not. Although I reckon Bothroyd would be a good midfielder.
The thing I like about JB is that when he is playing, you always know something special could happen. I find that entertaining, one of the reasons for enjoying the match.
He scored 6 goals in 3 matches a month and a half ago. So who is to say that he can't be the goalscorer?
Oh and for the people who said he didn't turn up at the Hawthorns....$$$$$$$$. Our only threat, won countless flick ons despite being costantly fouled and was probably more visible than all our players bar Seyi. Keogh didn't turn up for that one.
Agree with every word.
Jay is extremely strong on the ball and holds defenders off very well which brings other ppl into play. Good in the air, a threat from free kicks and brings alot of quality to the team... I always feel he could get a goal at any attacking play.
If everybody in the team ran around like headless chickens and failed to hold their positions, would you all be happier? Just because he doesn't do this it makes him lazy with an attitude problem? Give me a break. Okay, I'm not denying this hasn't been the problem in the past for him (hence the reason for so many clubs) but MM has got him much fitter, alot more focused and he does work harder off the ball compared to his early days at the club.
Like Mobnet mentions, they're both players who can compliment a striker.
We need another striker not necessarally to replace Jay but to give him competition for his place. A squad challenging for promotion can't only use 3 strikers in one season. If Jay is worthy of a starting role he will get it whoever we bring in, but there is nothing wrong in looking to improve even on your stronger positions.
Agree with Mobnet.
I don't think Keogh is that good. You all love him because he gives his all and thats fair enough. He does work hard but how many chances does he need.
What a myth.
However, even though Jay is one of the best players at the club, we still need another striker.
Bang on, we've only got 3 senior strikers in Keogh, Bothroyd and Ward. To me it's looking like Ward's all round game is struggling at this level. Bothroyd is as talented as anything in this league and can win you games, so he's got to stay but we do need at least one more front line striker.
PREM.L.L
30-05-2007, 15:14
Jay is probably the most naturally gifted player at the club. His attitude and fitness may have improved, but he still lacks that killer desire and passion, that ability to lose the ball and fight to get it back.
When he receives a pass a yard behind him, instead of stopping, turning and trying his hardest to get the ball (as Keough would) he choses to pull a face and throw his arms up in the ait like a spoiled kid.
Jay could be a world beater, but sadly, I, and a host of people with far more knowledge of the game, don't think he will be.
Indeed, it's called the Nathan Blake syndrome.
Keogh doesn't get as many as he should and hopefully that will change, but the amount of chaos in the opposition back line he causes and his link play and his energy and his runs make him far more useful than Jay imo.
If Jay had the workrate of Keogh he would be playing in the prem. Stick a proper predator up with Keogh and lets get some $$$$ing goals.
Even Franky the pole would flourish alongside Keogh.
I bet the same people slagging Bothroyd off are the same who thought Miller was a great forward. Just because Miller ran around a lot (normally in positions that don't hurt the opposition like left back and on the wing) he endeared himself to a lot of Wolves fans, even though he is the biggest sulker Ive ever seen at Wolves.
Bothroyd is a top quality footballer so is Miller, when played in the right position by a decent manager he scored over 40 goals in 2 seaons. It wasn't his fault Hoddle was an idiot!!
If Bothroyd could score as many as Miller we'd have no probs and I reckon with a decent pre-season he might!!
Nathan Blake and Kenny Miller the best centre forward partnership we've had at the club since Bull and Mutch!!
PREM.L.L
30-05-2007, 15:24
Nathan Blake and Kenny Miller the best centre forward partnership we've had at the club since Bull and Mutch!!
Agreed. It could have been better though IMO. Better than they were I mean, not better than B & M.
Visage Wolf
30-05-2007, 15:26
Nathan Blake and Kenny Miller the best centre forward partnership we've had at the club since Bull and Mutch!!
I may be wrong (there's a first time for everything), but werent Blake and Sturridge more effective in terms of goals per game as a partnership?
wolves85nb
30-05-2007, 15:36
Indeed, it's called the Nathan Blake syndrome.
Keogh doesn't get as many as he should and hopefully that will change, but the amount of chaos in the opposition back line he causes and his link play and his energy and his runs make him far more useful than Jay imo.
If Jay had the workrate of Keogh he would be playing in the prem. Stick a proper predator up with Keogh and lets get some $$$$ing goals.
Even Franky the pole would flourish alongside Keogh.
I can't understand why ppl don't seem to recognise the contribution Jay made in the final third of the season when he actually got fitter and more focused.
There's more to football than just running around ball chasing!
PREM.L.L
30-05-2007, 15:42
I can't understand why ppl don't seem to recognise the contribution Jay made in the final third of the season when he actually got fitter and more focused.
There's more to football than just running around ball chasing!
I agree and I like Jay, as someone said he's a threat from anywhere and you always get a feeling there's something onm with him and his sledgehammer left foot. It's just he isn't the out and out Predator we need and Keogh makes more happen around him. I'd always have him to switch about with though. Starts and as sub etc.
wolves85nb
30-05-2007, 16:06
I agree we need that predator to play with one of them but disagree Keogh makes more happen around him. Jay's strength on the ball is exceptionally good. He brings Kightly, Olo, McIndoe into play hell of lot and it often goes unrecognised. He's also a great aerial threat (Palace goal for example) with a cracking left foot.
Keogh seems to be doing more by his constant running but in actual fact I don't think it's as effective as the work done by Bothroyd.
I like the idea of switching between them because different opposition defenders bring different problems to our attack play.
I think the statements of some ppl that label Bothroyd lazy because he doesn't constantly run like Keogh as a lack of knowledge of the game and basically bull $$$$!.
Just because Miller ran around a lot (normally in positions that don't hurt the opposition like left back and on the wing) he endeared himself to a lot of Wolves fans,
That's right Uncle Festa, that's exactly why he endeared himself to Wolves fans. It had absolutely nothing to do with the 23 goals he scored in the season we got promoted, nothing at all.
johnybig32
30-05-2007, 17:04
I too didnt like Miller and didnt think he was all he was made out to be. Despite the fact he scored a lot of goals, he should have scored a lot more!
Jay is totally different to Miller and i think in the long run will be more effective. Dont forget Jay wasnt fit at the start, and spent a lot of time out injured. He was very important in the final part of te season. I think there is 1 similiarity between the two, both wont put the club before money...
Exile Wolf
30-05-2007, 17:40
I think we have yet to see the best from Jay. He arrived with a bad reputation, was warned by Mick to work hard in training to prove himself, which he did. The final third of the season I thought at times he was one of our better players. IMHO given a good pre-season we could well see him netting the 20+ goals we need.
Who knows if we get Sharp, Jay may be a better partner for him than Keogh was at Scunny
MK Panther
30-05-2007, 19:02
He looks alright to me, strong skilful and the best is yet to come? CAn take over a season to get used to another club for some players.
