No Serious Interest

[Bill McCai]

From the Express and Spanner:

Wolves chief executive Jez Moxey has admitted that Sir Jack Hayward’s half-price offer has failed to lure any serious bidders.
One month on from Sir Jack’s impromptu radio broadcast offering to hand over ownership of Wolves for £20m, Moxey said there had been no serious interest.
With little prospect of immediate investment, Wolves are content to continue with the “brick by brick” strategy of blooding young players and scouring the lower leagues for potential bargains.

[nuno]

http://www.cybercomunismo.org/phpBB2/images/smiles/che.gif

Comrades. It is time.

[Visage Wolf]

Seems fine by me. Im happy with things the way they are.

[hoop]

I still don't see how this £20m give-away will work.

For example say that I had £20m I could lay my hands on. I phone up SJH and say "Right oh Jack, I'll take the old albatross off your hands".

We both get our day in the papers, me as the new driving force willing to put my money where my mouth is, and SJH leaving the club finacially secure for the future.

So now I'm the "Head Honcho", "El Queso Grande" sitting in my new office next to Jez, and I say to him "Jez, put that pie down a minute. Can you make me out a cheque with the official Wolverhampton Wanderers giant novelty cheque book for that £20m I paid in last week will you?"

So now I own WWFC lock, stock and barrell and have put the £20m back into my own account.

Whats to stop this happening?

[Visage Wolf]

I still don't see how this £20m give-away will work.

For example say that I had £20m I could lay my hands on. I phone up SJH and say "Right oh Jack, I'll take the old albatross off your hands".

We both get our day in the papers, me as the new driving force willing to put my money where my mouth is, and SJH leaving the club finacially secure for the future.

So now I'm the "Head Honcho", "El Queso Grande" sitting in my new office next to Jez, and I say to him "Jez, put that pie down a minute. Can you make me out a cheque with the official Wolverhampton Wanderers giant novelty cheque book for that £20m I paid in last week will you?"

So now I own WWFC lock, stock and barrell and have put the £20m back into my own account.

Whats to stop this happening?

I suspect that there will be various agreements and terms and conditions put in place to stop that happening....

[hoop]

I suspect that there will be various agreements and terms and conditions put in place to stop that happening....

Maybe that's one of the stumbling blocks.

I guess most multi-millionaires don't like being told what they can and can't do with their own money. Even if it is by another multi-millionaire.

[fenella]

I suspect that there will be various agreements and terms and conditions put in place to stop that happening....

I'm not sure you could? I suspect it will come down to SJH having a gut feeling about whoever he sells to.

[ooh la la]

Let's face it, we haven't won anything significant for years and we've had countless managers spending millions of the clubs money to gain nothing (except for one). I think the club has too much of a past and the expectations of it's fan base for instant success are too high for any worthy investor to take a chance on. I think the club at the moment is doing the right thing in taking it slowly and building for the future. My only concern would be that without success, we just become another feeder club for the top tier, selling all our homegrown prospects without reaping the rewards of Premiership football ourselves.

[nimrod]

I still don't see how this £20m give-away will work.

For example say that I had £20m I could lay my hands on. I phone up SJH and say "Right oh Jack, I'll take the old albatross off your hands".

We both get our day in the papers, me as the new driving force willing to put my money where my mouth is, and SJH leaving the club finacially secure for the future.

So now I'm the "Head Honcho", "El Queso Grande" sitting in my new office next to Jez, and I say to him "Jez, put that pie down a minute. Can you make me out a cheque with the official Wolverhampton Wanderers giant novelty cheque book for that £20m I paid in last week will you?"

So now I own WWFC lock, stock and barrell and have put the £20m back into my own account.

Whats to stop this happening?

If the money is put in as share capital on day one, I don't think it can then be paid out very easily. I guess Wolves could lend the money back to the multi-millionaire, but that seems unlikely.

[Kenny-11]

So now I own WWFC lock, stock and barrell and have put the £20m back into my own account.

Whats to stop this happening?

Its what the new owners of West Ham are doing. The club has to pay them back the £100m they spent on buying the club.

[7X]

Put this thread, together with this thread .........

http://www.molineuxmix.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=14304

........ slash wrists time?

[Red Socks]

Its what the new owners of West Ham are doing. The club has to pay them back the £100m they spent on buying the club.

And in a simlar way the yanks who control Manure set up loans which are being serviced from the day to day activities of Man U plc.

[Hibbitt was King]

If, as some posters have said, Sir Jack's give-away does not include the lease on the land, nor the buildings, nor the fixtures and fittings, then IMO he's not giving anything away except the right to fund the team. If this is the case, it really does explain why no suckers (sorry investors) have been found.

[fenella]

If, as some posters have said, Sir Jack's give-away does not include the lease on the land, nor the buildings, nor the fixtures and fittings, then IMO he's not giving anything away except the right to fund the team. If this is the case, it really does explain why no suckers (sorry investors) have been found.

I've heard there's interest in buying Man City, but they don't own their ground.

[Hibbitt was King]

Fair point, Fenella, but my post is based on pure supposition.

You'd need to know the detailed terms of each proposed deal to compare or contrast.

[wolfie smith]

I still don't see how this £20m give-away will work.

For example say that I had £20m I could lay my hands on. I phone up SJH and say "Right oh Jack, I'll take the old albatross off your hands".

We both get our day in the papers, me as the new driving force willing to put my money where my mouth is, and SJH leaving the club finacially secure for the future.

So now I'm the "Head Honcho", "El Queso Grande" sitting in my new office next to Jez, and I say to him "Jez, put that pie down a minute. Can you make me out a cheque with the official Wolverhampton Wanderers giant novelty cheque book for that £20m I paid in last week will you?"

So now I own WWFC lock, stock and barrell and have put the £20m back into my own account.

Whats to stop this happening?

moxey putting a pie down for starters:D

if anyone did takeover and put £20m into team strengthening, what would happen when the £20m is gone and we are still finishing 7th season after season

[nimrod]

Presumably the CEO would say he didn't want to spend the money in the first place, announce a "new approach" and expect us all to jump for joy.

[leedswolf]

Let's face it, we haven't won anything significant for years.

Therein lies the problem.

[Stans the man]

I'm a bit puzzled why the point about not owning the ground is considered to be a stumbling block here.

[gaz kford]

I'm a bit puzzled why the point about not owning the ground is considered to be a stumbling block here.

Do you mean Stadium or land it's built on.

[Essex Wolf]

What exactly is appealing about the club to make it of interest to any would be buyer?

For all the tosh that is spoken about what a super smashing lovely great supporter SJH is blah blah blah in his time the club has stood still in terms of league status.

Managers, some bloody awful, have been hired and fired and millions has been spent,in some cases wasted, yet the club has not progressed at all.It's no surprise as far as I'm concerned that interest in buying Wolves is non excistent right now.

[Stans the man]

Do you mean Stadium or land it's built on.



Let me put it this way - does the company you work for own the property it is in? It's pretty likely it doesn't, but that doesn't necessarily make it an unattractive purchase to someone. Firm I am at is a good example here; we have rejected a number of enquiries this year to buy us but we don't own anything beyond the furniture inside the building. The interest from a serious party would not rule them out due to this imv.

[Essex Wolf]

Let me put it this way - does the company you work for own the property it is in? It's pretty likely it doesn't, but that doesn't necessarily make it an unattractive purchase to someone. Firm I am at is a good example here; we have rejected a number of enquiries this year to buy us but we don't own anything beyond the furniture inside the building. The interest from a serious party would not rule them out due to this imv.


Very good points Stan and if the Wolves were truly an attractive proposition I feel sure someone would have shown an interest by now.For all any of us know there may have been people showing interest but if so then why no activity??

Is it perhaps because SJH is not giving it away as the club like to make out and there are restrictions or criteria that is not being spoken of?

[Stans the man]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are some riders that come with the sale. But to be fair I would think they are meant with the best intentions to prevent a Bhatti 2: The Sequel happening again. This may well be putting off the bidders with hidden agendas.

[Essex Wolf]

I wouldn't be surprised if there are some riders that come with the sale. But to be fair I would think they are meant with the best intentions to prevent a Bhatti 2: The Sequel happening again. This may well be putting off the bidders with hidden agendas.

And if correct is good forwarding thinking and planning but SJH has to take stock of the mess he has been largely responsible for and part of. Once he does he might realise buyers will be few and far between when they see the state of things.

[Prodigal Wolf]

Oh God, you lot really are thick, aren't you?

If the club does not own the land upon which it stands, then its commercial value is reduced. The value of the purchase then rests in two things, the bricks and mortar and the squad/club, which has a limited life span/shelf life. The bricks and mortar being an asset declining in value as it ages. Would you buy an old house without the freehold in this day and age?

[Stans the man]

Thank you for the 4-year old's guide to accountancy Prodigal. :rolleyes:

Now return to my question and try again. Owning the estate on which a business is based is not essential. It's value may increase on the sale but the risk - certainly in the case of a football club - is that the property may be sold or mortgaged to liquidate that asset, which in the high-rolling stakes that is football is not a comfortable thought. So, why do you consider us to be thick discussing it? And whilst you're on the subject, try buying a house in many areas of London for example - or a flat in just about all cases - and you will discover to your horror that they are sold on a leasehold.

[wolfie smith]

does the offer include buying the "premiership" training ground and acadamy land, plenty houses could be put on there to make it worth it, i think i'll ring the bank;)

[Bend It Like Dennison]

Is it perhaps because SJH is not giving it away as the club like to make out and there are restrictions or criteria that is not being spoken of?

No perhaps about it Essex, I'd say that pretty much sums up the situation perfectly.

[Bill McCai]

No perhaps about it Essex, I'd say that pretty much sums up the situation perfectly.

Do you think there should be no restrictions on who takes over at Molineux?

[Visage Wolf]

I'm a bit puzzled why the point about not owning the ground is considered to be a stumbling block here.

Because it means that any new owner's only chance of turning WWFC into a good investment is through on-field success - there's no capital appreciation availkable, for example, and there's no ability to leverage the capital locked up in the land value to generate further income.

Given that on-field success is a very risky proposition, thats why potential owners are thin on the ground.

[John]

Because it means that any new owner's only chance of turning WWFC into a good investment is through on-field success - there's no capital appreciation availkable, for example, and there's no ability to leverage the capital locked up in the land value to generate further income.

Given that on-field success is a very risky proposition, thats why potential owners are thin on the ground.
What about the training ground at compton.
Good land for a housing estate.
Build training ground on a brownfield site in the Black Country.
Should be profitable.

[Visage Wolf]

What about the training ground at compton.
Good land for a housing estate.
Build training ground on a brownfield site in the Black Country.
Should be profitable.

Wasnt the mortgage on the training ground only a few million? Certainly not comparable to the 20m of investment that SJH is demanding.

[Hibbitt was King]

I'm a bit puzzled why the point about not owning the ground is considered to be a stumbling block here.

Vis has answered this, but I would add that for £20m (I wish), I would want the buildings and the income they generate (restaurant and fitness club, for example). There is also the possibility of renting out Compton.

As for securing Compton from house developers, the site probably doesn't have planning permission for that, and, in any case, SJH could include a covenant in the sale that it could only be used for football or perhaps sport.

[John]

Wasnt the mortgage on the training ground only a few million? Certainly not comparable to the 20m of investment that SJH is demanding.
We borrowed the cost of construction. Not neccessarily it's total value.

[Bill McCai]

We borrowed the cost of construction. Not neccessarily it's total value.

I'm not sure but I very much doubt you would be able to get residential planning permission on Compton Park.

[Bend It Like Dennison]

Do you think there should be no restrictions on who takes over at Molineux?

Yes I do Bill. I just find it amazing, what with all this fantastic business accumen we supposedly have at this club, we havent had one serious enquiry in 3 years. Which tells me either:

a)The club isnt being given away at all.

or

b)The restrictions & conditions being put in place are either unrealistic or unreasonable. Or both.

[John]

I'm not sure but I very much doubt you would be able to get residential planning permission on Compton Park.
A combination of blackmail and bribery, should suffice.

[Bill McCai]

Yes I do Bill. I just find it amazing, what with all this fantastic business accumen we supposedly have at this club, we havent had one serious enquiry in 3 years. Which tells me either:

a)The club isnt being given away at all.

or

b)The restrictions & conditions being put in place are either unrealistic or unreasonable. Or both.

What conditions would you impose? I think Visage Wolf has it spot on. The only way people will make money out of Wolves is to make them a real force in the Premiership. Nobody is willing to spend that kind of money, as there is no guarantee substantial investment would yield any substantial return.

[John]

What conditions would you impose? I think Visage Wolf has it spot on. The only way people will make money out of Wolves is to make them a real force in the Premiership. Nobody is willing to spend that kind of money, as there is no guarantee substantial investment would yield any substantial return.
Why are people looking to buy Leicester?
Haven't Derby changed hands in the last few years?
Which other clubs are also "unable" to find buyers?
Are we really "for sale" at all.

[Visage Wolf]

Indeed. In the absense of a 'fan', the only way people will buy wolves is to make money on the deal.

The only way that someone could make money is if the club were given away for peanuts - and that has an obvious downside.

If someone was to obtain the club for just a few million, then what would they prefer to do?

a) Sell off the decent players, sell the training ground, release all the decent earners and walk off into the sunset with a decent profit

or

b) Invest in the team to get promotion and then invest further sums to become an established premiership team, before hoping to sell out with a profit.

Demanding that new owner makes significant investment means that plan a) is not an option.

And given that plan b is risky in the extreme, its not surprising that new owners are not forthcoming.

[Visage Wolf]

Why are people looking to buy Leicester?

Because of the fact that the club owns a huge piece of land on prime retail estate?

Haven't Derby changed hands in the last few years?

Ditto.

Which other clubs are also "unable" to find buyers?

The ones for whom their only assets are the continually depreciating playing staff.

Are we really "for sale" at all.

Yes, but we're a deeply unattractive proposition.

[John]

Because of the fact that the club owns a huge piece of land on prime retail estate?
What is this real estate?
Are you refering to the ground?
Isn't it owned by somebody else?
What did Mandric do with Pompey's stadium? He didn't knock that down did he?





The ones for whom their only assets are the continually depreciating playing staff.
Name them please, or are you making it up?



Yes, but we're a deeply unattractive proposition.
Nothing is unattractive at the right price.
At an unrealistic price is something really for sale?

[Visage Wolf]

What is this real estate?
Are you refering to the ground?
Isn't it owned by somebody else?
What did Mandric do with Pompey's stadium? He didn't knock that down did he?

He bought Pompey when they were in administration, so there was no need to rely on real estate to make a profit.

Tell me - imagine you were a potential investor in Wolves - how would you make a profit over, say, a 5 year period?

[Bill McCai]

I was trying to find some definite info on Leicester, does this mean anything?

http://foxestrust.co.uk/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=246&Itemid=2 (http://foxestrust.co.uk/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=246&Itemid=2)

http://foxestrust.co.uk/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=247&Itemid=2 (http://foxestrust.co.uk/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=247&Itemid=2)

[John]

Tell me - imagine you were a potential investor in Wolves - how would you make a profit over, say, a 5 year period?
You tell me what other clubs can't find buyers at this present time.

[John]

I was trying to find some definite info on Leicester, does this mean anything?

http://foxestrust.co.uk/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=246&Itemid=2 (http://foxestrust.co.uk/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=246&Itemid=2)

http://foxestrust.co.uk/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=247&Itemid=2 (http://foxestrust.co.uk/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=247&Itemid=2)
So, leicester don't own the stadium and have little other assets. They also have a massive loan to repay.
They are in the midlands.
Yet they found a buyer.
No unrealistic conditions imposed?

[Visage Wolf]

You tell me what other clubs can't find buyers at this present time.

In all honesty I dont know what other clubs in this division are up for sale.

If its a comparison with wolves, then I guess you'd have to find another club with very few capital assets that was currently in the Championship and was up for sale. I dont think there are any clubs that fit that description.

[John]

In all honesty I dont know what other clubs in this division are up for sale.
So why post this?
The ones for whom their only assets are the continually depreciating playing staff


If its a comparison with wolves, then I guess you'd have to find another club with very few capital assets that was currently in the Championship and was up for sale. I dont think there are any clubs that fit that description.
Leicester

[Bill McCai]

I read it as Leiester only have one debt, that being the stadium. When that is repaid, Mandaric ( or whoever buys the club ) will own that. I don’t think any potential investor in Wolves has the option to buy Molineux.

[Visage Wolf]

Leicester

Really? They've mortgaged their ground, effectively, so any new owner has the ability to pay off the debt and become the owner - its ouwld be entirely in their hands.

Unless the current owners of the ground on which Molineux stands decide to sell it, any new owner would be powerless to do anything. Its an important difference. Do not forget that to obtain the land that Wolves stands on would require a purchase at current market rates. To obtain the land that the Wolkers stadium stands on would require the repayment of a loan to the value of the land when the loan was made. There will be a significant difference there.

[Visage Wolf]

I read it as Leiester only have one debt, that being the stadium. When that is repaid, Mandaric ( or whoever buys the club ) will own that. I don’t think any potential investor in Wolves has the option to buy Molineux.

Dammit - you've said what i said, but more succinctly ;)

[fenella]

Tell me - imagine you were a potential investor in Wolves - how would you make a profit over, say, a 5 year period?

Year one: Invest £20m in players. Get promoted
Year two: Invest £10m in players. Get relegated. Receive millions from Sky
Year three: Sell £10m of players. Receive millions from Sky
Year four: Sell £10m of players. Receive millions from Sky
Year five: Not sure what I'd do.

I'd make a tidy profit I reckon.

[Visage Wolf]

Year one: Invest £20m in players. Get promoted
Year two: Invest £10m in players. Get relegated. Receive millions from Sky
Year three: Sell £10m of players. Receive millions from Sky
Year four: Sell £10m of players. Receive millions from Sky
Year five: Not sure what I'd do.

I'd make a tidy profit I reckon.

Im not convinced - you're shelling out 30m on players, balanced by receiving about 30m from Sky, and banking on player sales to make a profit, net of wages.

All of which hangs on getting promotion.....

Alternatively you could invest that 30m in the stock market (annualised trend return of circa 8%) and earn about 10m in profit over that 4 years with relying on the temperamental abilities of managers and players....

[John]

I read it as Leiester only have one debt, that being the stadium. When that is repaid, Mandaric ( or whoever buys the club ) will own that. I don’t think any potential investor in Wolves has the option to buy Molineux.
What if it's mortgage is for far more than it's worth.
Mandric would have to service the loan or try to pay it off and then what would he do with it?
Any money to be made from the stadium would be spent in buying it back.
It has therefore no value.
Which means it is comparable to Wolves, so why can't we find a buyer?

[Bill McCai]

What if it's mortgage is for far more than it's worth.
Mandric would have to service the loan or try to pay it off and then what would he do with it?
Any money to be made from the stadium would be spent in buying it back.
It has therefore no value.
Which means it is comparable to Wolves, so why can't we find a buyer?

I dont know how much the mortgage is for.

[Visage Wolf]

What if it's mortgage is for far more than it's worth.
Mandric would have to service the loan or try to pay it off and then what would he do with it?
Any money to be made from the stadium would be spent in buying it back.
It has therefore no value.
Which means it is comparable to Wolves, so why can't we find a buyer?


You do realise that what you say only makes sense of the value of the stadium and the land its sits on has remained static since 2002 - a period that has seen UK land prices skyrocket?

A 22 acre site on the outskirts of leicester is going to be worth quite a bit.

[Visage Wolf]

I dont know how much the mortgage is for.

Mandaric's bid apparently includes 15m to buy the stadium - it cost 37m to build.

Not a bad deal, eh?

[John]

A 22 acre site on the outskirts of leicester is going to be worth quite a bit.
As what?
A housing estate?
You are proposing that he could buy back the stadium, sell the land knock the stadium down, build a housing estate (in leicester) buy more land, build a new stadium and make a profit?
If he was that much of a magician he wouldn't be looking to buy crappy second tier midlands clubs.
If Leicester can find a buyer without owning the stadium, why can't we?

[fenella]

Im not convinced - you're shelling out 30m on players, balanced by receiving about 30m from Sky, and banking on player sales to make a profit, net of wages.

All of which hangs on getting promotion.....

Alternatively you could invest that 30m in the stock market (annualised trend return of circa 8%) and earn about 10m in profit over that 4 years with relying on the temperamental abilities of managers and players....

True, but I'm a millionaire, what do I want with more money? No, what I want is status and power. I want to hang out in the boardrooms of Old Trafford and Emirates, I want to meet Roman Abramovich. I want to be on the telly. I want to entertain my clients. And I believe I can do this without losing a penny of the £20m I'm going to invest. That big contract I'm trying to get my customer to sign? Well, I'm sure he'll sign it after a nice day at Old Trafford with all the trimmings - how much is that contract worth to me?

[leedswolf]

True, but I'm a millionaire, what do I want with more money? No, what I want is status and power. I want to hang out in the boardrooms of Old Trafford and Emirates, I want to meet Roman Abramovich. I want to be on the telly. I want to entertain my clients. And I believe I can do this without losing a penny of the £20m I'm going to invest. That big contract I'm trying to get my customer to sign? Well, I'm sure he'll sign it after a nice day at Old Trafford with all the trimmings - how much is that contract worth to me?

Become a director instead.

[Visage Wolf]

As what?
A housing estate?
You are proposing that he could buy back the stadium, sell the land knock the stadium down, build a housing estate (in leicester) buy more land, build a new stadium and make a profit?
If he was that much of a magician he wouldn't be looking to buy crappy second tier midlands clubs.
If Leicester can find a buyer without owning the stadium, why can't we?

Its a capital asset - its value is in the fact that he can buy the stadium for 15m (the amount outstanding on the loans), remortgage it at its potential value (considerably more than 15m), paying ~5% interest, and use the excess capital for investment, yielding returns of greater than 5%.

Lets say he could raise 30m by remortgaging the ground.

He spends 15m on acquiring it. He remortgages for 30m, interest only, at 5% p.a.

The 15m surplus he invests for an 10% p.a return.

Income = 10% x 30m = 3m p.a
Outgoings = 5% x 30m = 1.5m p.a

Profit = 1.5m per year. No knocking down or rebuilding required.

Its not brain science.....

[Visage Wolf]

True, but I'm a millionaire, what do I want with more money? No, what I want is status and power. I want to hang out in the boardrooms of Old Trafford and Emirates, I want to meet Roman Abramovich. I want to be on the telly. I want to entertain my clients. And I believe I can do this without losing a penny of the £20m I'm going to invest. That big contract I'm trying to get my customer to sign? Well, I'm sure he'll sign it after a nice day at Old Trafford with all the trimmings - how much is that contract worth to me?

An executive box would be cheaper, with a lot less risk....

[Visage Wolf]

Actually, it gets better - Leicester are still paying the interest on the laons used to build the stadium - with Mandaric paying off the loan this would free up that income stream, so he can invest in the team and *still* make a hefty profit....

[fenella]

An executive box would be cheaper, with a lot less risk....

Answer me this then. Liverpool was sold for 450m, despite needing a new ground, and having debts of 100m. That 450m could have been invested in the stock market, at your 8% return. To make money, the new owners are relying on players and managers to be successful - I doubt they'll make money if Liverpool don't finish regularly in the top four. That 450m is not to invest in the team, they need to find money on top of that.

Wolves is for sale for nothing.

So, why would anyone buy Liverpool? Why didn't they just get an executive box?

[Visage Wolf]

Answer me this then. Liverpool was sold for 450m, despite needing a new ground, and having debts of 100m. That 450m could have been invested in the stock market, at your 8% return. To make money, the new owners are relying on players and managers to be successful - I doubt they'll make money if Liverpool don't finish regularly in the top four. That 450m is not to invest in the team, they need to find money on top of that.

Wolves is for sale for nothing.

So, why would anyone buy Liverpool? Why didn't they just get an executive box?

In all honesty, I dont know. It does seem like a hell of a lot of money. I wonder what their balance sheet is like - I would imagine that their firm revenue streams are very strong - merchandising, season tickets etc etc Obviously the not so firm revenue streams - place money, champions league revenue etc are the deal maker/breaker.....

[Visage Wolf]

Actually Fenella - the guy thats buying Liverpool is worth about 14 billion quid apparently - he may be in it simply for the fun of it, like Abramovich, as opposed to being in it for financial reasons. Obviously if this is indeedvthe case then any arguments relating to prtofit/loss/assets etc become moot....

[nimrod]

I'm still not sure which companies SJH is willing to give away. I've only seen one company balance sheet and that basically had a load of share capital offset with a big loss (approx £40m). That means, for someone buying the company and being required to pay in 20m, then the company still has losses of £40m to clear before a dividend could be paid. For someone investing to take out a return, that's a bit of a hurdle.

You could do something clever like offsetting the share capital with the losses to clear them, unless you're required to sign something saying you won't. Of course, if someone did offset the losses then no doubt we'd all be up in arms about it anyway.

[John]

Its a capital asset - its value is in the fact that he can buy the stadium for 15m (the amount outstanding on the loans), remortgage it at its potential value (considerably more than 15m), paying ~5% interest, and use the excess capital for investment, yielding returns of greater than 5%.

Lets say he could raise 30m by remortgaging the ground.

He spends 15m on acquiring it. He remortgages for 30m, interest only, at 5% p.a.

The 15m surplus he invests for an 10% p.a return.

Income = 10% x 30m = 3m p.a
Outgoings = 5% x 30m = 1.5m p.a

Profit = 1.5m per year. No knocking down or rebuilding required.

Its not brain science.....
Apart from a permanent £30m debt, perfect.
If he can get £30M from it.
If it is mortgaged for only half it's value why aren't people fighting to take it over?
Oh and why can't Wolves find a buyer?

[Visage Wolf]

Apart from a permanent £30m debt, perfect.
If he can get £30M from it.

Debt is no problem whatsoever, as long as one is able to service it.

If it is mortgaged for only half it's value why aren't people fighting to take it over?

Because not that many folk have a spare 25m quid lying around?

Oh and why can't Wolves find a buyer?

Because we're not a very attractive proposition.....

[John]

Debt is no problem whatsoever, as long as one is able to service it.
So your happy for Wolves to borrow to get better players. Good lad.



Because not that many folk have a spare 25m quid lying around?

But he is the only man in the country with the money who can see what you can,
You should hire yourself as a buisness consultant.

[fenella]

Actually Fenella - the guy thats buying Liverpool is worth about 14 billion quid apparently - he may be in it simply for the fun of it, like Abramovich, as opposed to being in it for financial reasons. Obviously if this is indeedvthe case then any arguments relating to prtofit/loss/assets etc become moot....

I don't think either of them are in it purely for the fun. There are intangible benefits to owning a Premiership football club above and beyond the balance sheet. The Middle-East, Far-East and Russia is awash with money and the Premiership offers these people far more than just money, it offers status, a UK base, and somewhere to put their massive surplus of cash. But there will be money to be made, the Premership is a global commodity and interested parties want a seat at the table when TV and sponsorship deals are being created. That's why there are dozens of foreign entities currently circling around a good number of Premership clubs and discussing takeovers that run into the tens of millions.

Of course Wolves aren't in the Premiership (yet) but these people, or agents representing them, will be fully aware of who Jez Moxey is, and he will be fully aware of who they are. That is why I am staggered that Moxey says there has been a single bit of interest from anyone. I can believe no-one has come up with a good deal to satisfy SJH, but I can't believe there hasn't been at least a little interest from somewhere.

[Visage Wolf]

So your happy for Wolves to borrow to get better players. Good lad.




But he is the only man in the country with the money who can see what you can,
You should hire yourself as a buisness consultant.

I'd only be going back to a job I left.....

[John]

I'd only be going back to a job I left.....
So tell us what Jez needs to do to make Wolves an attractive propositon.

[John]

Its a capital asset - its value is in the fact that he can buy the stadium for 15m (the amount outstanding on the loans), remortgage it at its potential value (considerably more than 15m), paying ~5% interest, and use the excess capital for investment, yielding returns of greater than 5%.

Lets say he could raise 30m by remortgaging the ground.

He spends 15m on acquiring it. He remortgages for 30m, interest only, at 5% p.a.

The 15m surplus he invests for an 10% p.a return.

Income = 10% x 30m = 3m p.a
Outgoings = 5% x 30m = 1.5m p.a

Profit = 1.5m per year. No knocking down or rebuilding required.

Its not brain science.....
Hang on.
Why doesn't he just invest the £15m at 10%.
Profit=1.5M per year.
No scabby midlands club required

[Visage Wolf]

So tell us what Jez needs to do to make Wolves an attractive propositon.

Persuade SJH to give the club away for free.....

[John]

Persuade SJH to give the club away for free.....
Surely £10m, no strings attached stadium included, SJH out on his ear would get us snapped up?

[Visage Wolf]

Surely £10m, no strings attached stadium included, SJH out on his ear would get us snapped up?

I think the clubs assets are less than that, and I dont think 10m of investment would give a strong enough likelihood of promotion to swing it either.

SO no.

[John]

I think the clubs assets are less than that, and I dont think 10m of investment would give a strong enough likelihood of promotion to swing it either.

SO no.
You'd rather we went for nothing than £10m?

[Visage Wolf]

You'd rather we went for nothing than £10m?

No. You asked what price would make us attractive to investors. My answer is that I think it would be less than 10m.

[Visage Wolf]

You are spot on bild.

A poster came on to this forum, or it might have been the old E+S site sometime ago and said that he had been involved with a consortium who spoke to SJH about taking over the club, and said that there were so many restrictions in place it just wasn't worth proceeding.Everytime they found a way around a problem a new one was put up by SJH.

All Wolves fans should know that SJH is a liar (SJH May 2003 "We'll do a Birmingham")and cannot be trusted.

Because as we all know, everything posted on the internet is absolute FACT. :rolleyes:

[Visage Wolf]

Ooooh........GREAT COMEBACK.

[Stans the man]

In all fairness Highlander, if someone posted such details on a forum then I would be pretty cynical about its credibility irrespective of my opinion of SJH. But as for there being riders on a deal then no, I wouldn't be surprised if there were some.

[Ogerp]

One month on from Sir Jack’s impromptu radio broadcast offering to hand over ownership of Wolves for £20m, Moxey said there had been no serious interest.


So let's get this into the open....a multi millionaire with some £20 million to invest would invest in a company that offers itself up for sale on an impromptu radio broadcast on a local radio station.

I should think anyone with the way for all to have made enough monies to be able to invest £20 million would be either laughing their heads off or running in the opposite direction.

[Waggy's Boots]

Or perhaps maybe people have been interested and evilJez is just being coy because they haven't wanted publicity....after all SJH let the cat out of the bag theat he had met Joorabchian months after it happenned not the day after....

[The Vicar]

No assets, dwindling customer base, poor management, appalling PR, little prospect of growth, and all this for £20,000,000 with so many warranties and guarantees that you'd need £5 millions to pay the lawyers and accountants....i just can't see why there isn't a queue of millionaires outside Jez's office right now.

[Ogerp]

Or perhaps maybe people have been interested and evilJez is just being coy because they haven't wanted publicity....after all SJH let the cat out of the bag theat he had met Joorabchian months after it happenned not the day after....


Waggy, I believe it was SJH that gave the impromptu interview on a local radio station(yet again) not Moxey.

Another embarrassing moment I'm afraid, unless you really are gullable to believe?

I wonder if SJH has considered Exchange and Mart....I bet new investors would be beating his door down.........No need for commission chickee.

[Deutsch Wolf]

HIGHLANDER, when was the last time you enjoyed being a Wolves fan?

[Florida Wolfey]

Surely it's about time one of you wags put the club up for sale on craigslist.com?

[I.D.]

Surely it's about time one of you wags put the club up for sale on craigslist.com?

Has someone done the old joke of putting Wolves on e-bay? Makes me cry laughing every time that one.;)

[John]

one of you wags
How old are you FW?

[Visage Wolf]

Spot on vicar, this is the 'Hayward legacy'

Serious question, yes or no.

If I posted on a wolves board and claimed that the offer to sell the club ws utterly genuine, with no strings attached, would you believe me?

[fenella]

Serious question, yes or no.

If I posted on a wolves board and claimed that the offer to sell the club ws utterly genuine, with no strings attached, would you believe me?

What you need to do is keep on repeating it, over and over again. Even in threads that are completely unrelated. Eventually, it may get picked up by a lazy Daily Mirror journalist who will repeat your 'fact' in the paper. At this point, you can say it must be true because it was in the Daily Mirror. At this point, it actually becomes true.

[Bill McCai]

It could just be that nobody is interested. As much as we believe Wolves to be one of the ( potentially ) big clubs possible investors just don’t think it is worth the bother.

[ROVERT47]

Newcastle United set to be sold for £220 million.

We can't get any interest a £20 million.

Me thinks the old man is,shall we say,being slightly economical with the truth.

[John]

It could just be that nobody is interested.
Or the owner has attached so many strings, that no-one will touch us.
Considering we have already had talks with a least one set of potential buyers (the Iranian?), I think my scenario is more likely

[Bill McCai]

Or the owner has attached so many strings, that no-one will touch us.
Considering we have already had talks with a least one set of potential buyers (the Iranian?), I think my scenario is more likely

I thought you might.;)

[Visage Wolf]

Newcastle United set to be sold for £220 million.

We can't get any interest a £20 million.

Me thinks the old man is,shall we say,being slightly economical with the truth.

You dont think the small matter of a 60,000 capacity ground that they opwn, situated on prime land in the middle of Newcastle city centre might have a bearing on the validity of your comparison?

While we're at it, why dont we just say 'Man United found a buyer, so why cant we? Eh? EH? EH?'

[ROVERT47]

You dont think the small matter of a 60,000 capacity ground that they opwn, situated on prime land in the middle of Newcastle city centre might have a bearing on the validity of your comparison?

While we're at it, why dont we just say 'Man United found a buyer, so why cant we? Eh? EH? EH?'

O.k fair point,but we are asking £200 million less.

[leedswolf]

O.k fair point,but we are asking £200 million less.

For what though?

[Visage Wolf]

O.k fair point,but we are asking £200 million less.

So? I could put my house on the market for 10 million quid. and when potential buyers question the price say 'Well, its 210 million less than you'd pay for NUFC'.

Still wouldnt make it a good deal.....

[John]

Yo, situated on prime land in the middle of Newcastle city centre'
Why do all your arguements base around the fact they have some land as though we don't?
We have acres in Compton. Prime land for executive houses. We can train at goals in Willenhall

[fenella]

So? I could put my house on the market for 10 million quid. and when potential buyers question the price say 'Well, its 210 million less than you'd pay for NUFC'.

Still wouldnt make it a good deal.....

Its more like you put your 2 bedroom house in Wolverhampton on the market for 100 grand, and when you don't get a single person looking round in 3 years, you wonder why a 5 bedroom house in Newcastle is being going for a million quid. And when you question whether your estate agent might be crap, some wag says 'so you don't think the fact that its got 5 bedrooms and a nice garden might have something to do with it?'

[ROVERT47]

For what though?

A good Fan base,decent ground with potential for improvement,state of the art training base,good Manager,promising youth policy?

I dunno you tell me, surely there's enough there for someone to be interested at that price?

[Visage Wolf]

Why do all your arguements base around the fact they have some land as though we don't?
We have acres in Compton. Prime land for executive houses. We can train at goals in Willenhall

Acres of land that are a greenfield site without planning permission, you mean?

[Visage Wolf]

A good Fan base,decent ground with potential for improvement,state of the art training base,good Manager,promising youth policy?

I dunno you tell me, surely there's enough there for someone to be interested at that price?

The training ground is indeed an asset, but the ground needs investemnt and the other things you've mentioned could all disappear overnight. Asset-wise they're worthless..

[leedswolf]

Acres of land that are a greenfield site without planning permission, you mean?

Surely SJH would've flogged Compton and taken the money before now if it was a viable resedential development option?

[Bill McCai]

Surely SJH would've flogged Compton and taken the money before now if it was a viable resedential development option?

I was at school down there when it was first acquired Wolves ( a deal brokered by my games teacher Mr. Morgan who was Graham Taylors best friend, infact you could probably say I am responsible for the training ground – to save time ). I am almost certain there is no way you would get residential planning permission on Compton Park.

[leedswolf]

A good Fan base,decent ground with potential for improvement,state of the art training base,good Manager,promising youth policy?

I dunno you tell me, surely there's enough there for someone to be interested at that price?

Fixed assets not worth £20m. Good will (i.e. fanbase) is hard to put a value on. I would hazard a guess that purchasing Wolves would be more akin to a rich fan's 'train-set' than a business opportunity.

[John]

I would hazard a guess that purchasing Wolves would be more akin to a rich fan's 'train-set' than a business opportunity.
But Leicester isn't?

[leedswolf]

But Leicester isn't?

Apparently not.

[Visage Wolf]

But Leicester isn't?

Leicester - MM pays 25m, and as part of the deal gets a stadium and land that cost 37m to build/buy.

Wolves - Prospective owner pays 20m to get a training ground and a whole load of rapidly diminishing assets.

Can you really not see the difference?

[John]

Leicester - MM pays 25m, and as part of the deal gets a stadium and land that cost 37m to build/buy.

Wolves - Prospective owner pays 20m to get a training ground and a whole load of rapidly diminishing assets.

Can you really not see the difference?
Our prospective owner pays nothing, but has to make a commitment to invest £20M over time in stock of his choosing, whilst gaining access to an excellent training facility, an academy buildings.
Can you not see SJH is more than likely bull$$$$ting?

[fenella]

Our prospective owner pays nothing, but has to make a commitment to invest £20M over time in stock of his choosing, whilst gaining access to an excellent training facility, an academy buildings.
Can you not see SJH is more than likely bull$$$$ting?

I think this thread has gone on long enough. None of us know what's going on, what's on offer, what is and isn't included, and none of us know anything about how much it actually costs to run a football club. There are those of us who believe, if true, that giving the club away is a bargain, and there are those that think it isn't. But no-one's gonna win this argument because none of us know what we're talking about.

[Visage Wolf]

Our prospective owner pays nothing, but has to make a commitment to invest £20M over time in stock of his choosing, whilst gaining access to an excellent training facility, an academy buildings.
Can you not see SJH is more than likely bull$$$$ting?

The only way a buyer of wolves could recoup his investment is if we got promoted.

The only way Mandaric *wont* recoup his investment is if there's some collosal prooperty price crask that wipes out 50% of the value of both the Walkers Stadium AND the land it sits on.

Wolves - high risk of losing all your money.
Leicester - very small risk of losing all your money.

[nimrod]

The only way a buyer of wolves could recoup his investment is if we got promoted.

The only way Mandaric *wont* recoup his investment is if there's some collosal prooperty price crask that wipes out 50% of the value of both the Walkers Stadium AND the land it sits on.

Wolves - high risk of losing all your money.
Leicester - very small risk of losing all your money.

As far as I'm aware the requirement was to put £20m in the club. It doesn't mean the club has to spend it. In fact, as we're apparently the 7th best run club in England and living within our means, why is there a high risk of losing all of the money? The club can keep it in the bank whilst it continues to go from strength to strength under the "new approach". The new owner has complete choice whether the money is spent or not.

What I shouldn't be surprised at I guess is that I read the threads and see some people waxing lyrical about the club being so well run it fills me with such hope, and then I find seemingly the same people suggesting how worthless the club is. Still, musn't grumble I suppose. Schizophrenia is the best policy on these matters I find.

[Bedford Wolf]

I was under the impression that

Wolverhampton council owned the land that the Mol is built on.
SJH owned the club.
A company called Wem holdings (I'm not sure of the name) owns the Mol.
SJH owns Wem holdings.

If the club is given away, SJH could charge Wolves rent as his company owns the Mol. Wolves could be held to ransom as we don't have an alternate venue to play our games.

The question is, what is it that SJH is willing to give away?

[Visage Wolf]

As far as I'm aware the requirement was to put £20m in the club. It doesn't mean the club has to spend it. In fact, as we're apparently the 7th best run club in England and living within our means, why is there a high risk of losing all of the money? The club can keep it in the bank whilst it continues to go from strength to strength under the "new approach". The new owner has complete choice whether the money is spent or not.

But they'd have 20m quid sat in a bank account doing nothing.....

What I shouldn't be surprised at I guess is that I read the threads and see some people waxing lyrical about the club being so well run it fills me with such hope, and then I find seemingly the same people suggesting how worthless the club is. Still, musn't grumble I suppose. Schizophrenia is the best policy on these matters I find.

Agreed ;)

[Bend It Like Dennison]

Why do all your arguements base around the fact they have some land as though we don't?
We have acres in Compton. Prime land for executive houses. We can train at goals in Willenhall

I was wondering the same thing.

Even if Newcastle do have a prime City Centre location its all elementary surely? The're hardly going to knock down St James Park & sell it to Tesco's or Barratt Homes are they?

[Bill McCai]

I was wondering the same thing.

Even if Newcastle do have a prime City Centre location its all elementary surely? The're hardly going to knock down St James Park & sell it to Tesco's or Barratt Homes are they?

I think it might have something to do with resale value. If things go wrong at Newcastle they can sell from a position of owning the ground/the land etc which will be worth whatever it is worth as the value of city centre land will not be erlated to how the football side are getting on. What would Wolves resale value be if the £20m did not bring Premiership football?

[Visage Wolf]

I was wondering the same thing.

Even if Newcastle do have a prime City Centre location its all elementary surely? The're hardly going to knock down St James Park & sell it to Tesco's or Barratt Homes are they?

No, of course they're not - but it means that any new owner is likely to get back a significant sum when they choose to sell - even if the football club were to plummet down the divisions they wouldnt lose all their money.

With wolves, the value of the investment would be almost entirely linked to the on-field fortunes of the team (with a small amount in the solid assets such as the training ground).

[John]

Acres of land that are a greenfield site without planning permission, you mean?
Planning permission can be gained. It's an old school playing field in the middle of a built up area. They are being sold off and built on all the time. The end of the training ground is houses anyway, it's not in the middle if the countryside.

[John]

No, of course they're not - but it means that any new owner is likely to get back a significant sum when they choose to sell - even if the football club were to plummet down the divisions they wouldnt lose all their money.
Rubbish. If Newcastle were in league 1, heavily in debt and the owner wanted to sell, why would anyone pay a reasonable amount of money to take it on. The owner would be held to ransom and end up giving the club away to get it off his hands.

[Visage Wolf]

Planning permission can be gained. It's an old school playing field in the middle of a built up area. They are being sold off and built on all the time. The end of the training ground is houses anyway, it's not in the middle if the countryside.

True - but no developer would buy the land before planning consent has been granted. Until that happens the land is worthless. It would be contingent on Wolves to apply for permission and then sell the land.

[John]

True - but no developer would buy the land before planning consent has been granted. Until that happens the land is worthless. It would be contingent on Wolves to apply for permission and then sell the land.
So St James' Park is worthless without planning permission?
The same for the Walkers stadium?

[Visage Wolf]

Rubbish. If Newcastle were in league 1, heavily in debt and the owner wanted to sell, why would anyone pay a reasonable amount of money to take it on. The owner would be held to ransom and end up giving the club away to get it off his hands.

No, because anyone with a braincell would seperate the football club form the ownership of the ground, much as has been done by Wolves.

They would effectively be two seperate companies.

[Visage Wolf]

So St James' Park is worthless without planning permission?
The same for the Walkers stadium?

Since when have football stadia been open parkland?

[John]

No, because anyone with a braincell would seperate the football club form the ownership of the ground, much as has been done by Wolves.

They would effectively be two seperate companies.
And people would be queing up to buy a stadium of a bankrupt football club?
WHY?
They'd hardly be able to up the rent to recuperate the money spent on buying the stadium.
1 company or 2, you'd still lose a load of money if you took an established club down the divisions.

[John]

Since when have football stadia been open parkland?
Have you been to our trainig ground?
Open parkland?

[Visage Wolf]

And people would be queing up to buy a stadium of a bankrupt football club?
WHY?

I dont know - why not ask the consortium that took Leicester out of administration?

Or ask Milan Mandaric why he bought Pompey out of administration?

Or Mohammed Al Fayed why he bought Fulham when they were struggling.....

They'd hardly be able to up the rent to recuperate the money spent on buying the stadium.
1 company or 2, you'd still lose a load of money if you took an established club down the divisions.

True, but you'd at least have a solid assets to recoup *some* of your investment. Take Wolves down the divisions and you'd get absolutely nothing back.

[Visage Wolf]

Actually, $$$$$$$ it. You're right.

Wolves are just as attractive as Leicester.

[Bill McCai]

http://www.wolverhampton.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A47D82F5-0AA1-4C2F-A73D-0C68FE281629/0/bp1.pdf (http://www.wolverhampton.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A47D82F5-0AA1-4C2F-A73D-0C68FE281629/0/bp1.pdf)

On pages 16 an 17 here there is something about Compton Park.

[Bill McCai]

Actually, $$$$$$$ it. You're right.

Wolves are just as attractive as Leicester.

Yes I have been swayed as well.

[nimrod]

True, but you'd at least have a solid assets to recoup *some* of your investment. Take Wolves down the divisions and you'd get absolutely nothing back.

I'm still not getting this.. Say Leicester's ground is worth £40m and someone buys the club for £40m then they get relegated and make losses of say £20m, then it's true they could sell it maybe for £20m, but the buyer has also lost £20m.

If someone buys Wolves for £20m, we get relegated and lose £20m, then again you're right, Wolves is worth nothing, but the buyer has also lost £20m.

The benefits in owning the ground would be other revenues from owning it which seems possible, or if you intend and are able to redevelop it as something mroe valuable. Where's the extra value if it's permanently locked up in a football club and you've had to pay full value for it?

[Visage Wolf]

Yes I have been swayed as well.

Indeed. I never realise just how persuasive a debating tactic 'Always missing the point' could be.

[Visage Wolf]

I'm still not getting this.. Say Leicester's ground is worth £40m and someone buys the club for £40m then they get relegated and make losses of say £20m, then it's true they could sell it maybe for £20m, but the buyer has also lost £20m.

If someone buys Wolves for £20m, we get relegated and lose £20m, then again you're right, Wolves is worth nothing, but the buyer has also lost £20m.

Thats true, but only because of the figures you've stated. Mandaric has said he'll buy Leicester for 25m, which includes 15m to pay off the loans still outstanding on the ground. Dont forget, that ground cost over 30m to build. So even if the club goes bust, he still owns the ground (and more importantly the land). Take ownership of wolves and if the club gies bust you've lost everything. Thats why wolves will not fetch anywhere near the same price as Leicester, because 100% of the purchase price will be invested in a very volatile commodity player contracts and registrations, rather than the more solid investment of bricks and mortar that makes up a sizeable proportion of the Leicester purchase price.

[Visage Wolf]

http://www.wolverhampton.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A47D82F5-0AA1-4C2F-A73D-0C68FE281629/0/bp1.pdf (http://www.wolverhampton.gov.uk/NR/rdonlyres/A47D82F5-0AA1-4C2F-A73D-0C68FE281629/0/bp1.pdf)

On pages 16 an 17 here there is something about Compton Park.

So basically Compton park will not (for the foreseeable future) be available for development.....

[Wivey Wolf]

True - but no developer would buy the land before planning consent has been granted. Until that happens the land is worthless. It would be contingent on Wolves to apply for permission and then sell the land.

Not strictly true. The developer could get planning permission on the land before purchasing.

Anyone can apply for planning permission on any piece of land. It doesn't mean that they can do anything with it. I could apply for planning permission to build a four bedroom house in your back garden if I wanted to, and assuming it passed planning guidelines and got through the planning committee, I could be granted that permission. Doesn't mean I can actually build the house. Plus I don't know where you live anyway...

[nuno]

Lets be realistic, any owner of a team that gets promotion this season is in for a 40M bumper pay day. Although it's extremely doubtful that Wolves will be one of the three, while there is still a chance, there is no way Hayward will give that kind of opportunity away.

[John]

, rather than the more solid investment of bricks and mortar that makes up a sizeable proportion of the Leicester purchase price.

What value is a stadium in Leicester if Leicester City goes bust in 5 years time? Who would want it?
Why would they pay a decent price?
Leicester is far more of a gamble than Wolves.
However, they are available for sale condition free, we are not.

[John]

So basically Compton park will not (for the foreseeable future) be available for development.....
Eh?
The UDP can remove it from Green belt at any time, should it decide to.

[Visage Wolf]

The UDP can remove it from Green belt at any time, should it decide to.

http://www.mbl.is/svipmyndir/syningar/nirland/paisley.jpg

I will NEVER let them build on Comtpon Park.

NO SURRENDER!

[John]

I will NEVER let them build on Comtpon Park.

NO SURRENDER!
Excellent comeback

[Visage Wolf]

Thankyou. Yours needs some work though.

[Flitwick Wolf]

OK Chaps, I'm gonna stick some thing into the fire.

The fact that these clubs/companies whom are being taken over have huge losses should be taken into accoun, ie. They but x club for £50m (the media call it £450m as the club is £400m in debt). The new owner is able to offset the losses in club against gains from their other companies and save on tax.

Plus he has only shelled out £50m?





Or should I go back to the pub?

[Visage Wolf]

OK Chaps, I'm gonna stick some thing into the fire.

The fact that these clubs/companies whom are being taken over have huge losses should be taken into accoun, ie. They but x club for £50m (the media call it £450m as the club is £400m in debt). The new owner is able to offset the losses in club against gains from their other companies and save on tax.

Plus he has only shelled out £50m?





Or should I go back to the pub?

Wolves are as attractive as Leicester to investors.

Thats all you need to know.

[Visage Wolf]

Wildean.

[John]

Wildean.
Should he have attached a picture?
Is that the sign of a quality comeback, flowing with wit and intelligence?

[nuno]

i thought it was where brighton play their home games.

[Visage Wolf]

Should he have attached a picture?
Is that the sign of a quality comeback, flowing with wit and intelligence?

Not necessarily, though, as you are no doubt aware, a picture can be worth a thousand words.

As for wit and intelligence, they may only be judged by the opinion of the masses, not by the individual, so as to insulate it from personal taste. I would, therefore, respectfully abstain from answering your latter question, preferring to leave it to acclamation.

[Bill McCai]

Just like Leicester Council are going to let somebody come in and and knock down a 4 year old purpose built community football stadium, the home of the citys' famous football club.Leicester Citys ground has no value to anybody apart from being used as a football ground,just like Molineux.

How thick are you? Of course they arent. But in the event the club is to be sold on, the owners would OWN the ground and land, hence they could sell it as part of the deal. That isn’t the case at Molineux, so any sale would just be assets and training ground. Have you microwaved your head?

[Visage Wolf]

Just like Leicester Council are going to let somebody come in and and knock down a 4 year old purpose built community football stadium, the home of the citys' famous football club.Leicester Citys ground has no value to anybody apart from being used as a football ground,just like Molineux.

'HIGHLANDER'

[John]

How thick are you? Of course they arent. But in the event the club is to be sold on, the owners would OWN the ground and land, hence they could sell it as part of the deal. That isn’t the case at Molineux, so any sale would just be assets and training ground. Have you microwaved your head?
So less the stadium, he is paying £10M for Leicester, yet Wolves is free and we are a worse deal?
Quality PR by SJH.
Feed the people some $$$$, and shut them up, despite sctructuring a deal no one will touch with a barge pole.
I think he wants revenge on the people that spat at him.

[Visage Wolf]

So less the stadium, he is paying £10M for Leicester, yet Wolves is free and we are a worse deal?
Quality PR by SJH.
Feed the people some $$$$, and shut them up, despite sctructuring a deal no one will touch with a barge pole.
I think he wants revenge on the people that spat at him.

Wolves arent free - SJH has asked for 20m to be invested in the team.

[Bill McCai]

So less the stadium, he is paying £10M for Leicester, yet Wolves is free and we are a worse deal?


SJH wants a guaranteed £20m investment into the club. That’s £10m more than £10m isn’t it? And you don’t get the stadium.

Thank god I'm going home in a minute. Has the local Special School logged on under your username this afternoon?

[John]

Wolves arent free - SJH has asked for 20m to be invested in the team.
So the current setup and staff are for free.
If you think you know football, you can buy players you can sell for a profit, and then still have the club as an asset.

[John]

SJH wants a guaranteed £20m investment into the club. That’s £10m more than £10m isn’t it? And you don’t get the stadium.
But you have £20M worth of new players!

[nuno]

And you don’t get the stadium.



no you dont. and you still have to pay hayward for the privalige of using it. what a deal, eh. im surprised they arent beating down a path to the old mans door.

[Bill McCai]

But you have £20M worth of new players!

But no guarantee they will be successful or hold their value. This is the crucial point. If they money SJH had spent on Wolves guaranteed success we wouldn’t be piddling about in the 2nd Division!

[Visage Wolf]

But you have £20M worth of new players!

Who can all leave on a free at the end of their contracts. Bricks and mortar cant do that.

[Bill McCai]

I believe that the actual stadium is part of the deal that SJH is offering,without the land?

Is it? Where does it say that? Above, nuno says it isn’t.

[John]

But no guarantee they will be successful or hold their value. This is the crucial point. If they money SJH had spent on Wolves guaranteed success we wouldn’t be piddling about in the 2nd Division!
But all the current staff are free.
Murray sold. Gobern sold next year. The Davies and so on
If you are clever enough players won't decrease too heavily in value. Buy them cheaper on the way up and then sell them on. All still while "investing" in the club.
It's the rest of the obsticles SJH has put in the way that stop us being sold.

[John]

Who can all leave on a free at the end of their contracts. Bricks and mortar cant do that.
If you let them. Is it a requirement the new owner is an idiot?

[Visage Wolf]

If you let them. Is it a requirement the new owner is an idiot?

Ah, OK then. So the masterplan is to buy 20m pounds worth of players and then meet any contract demands they make thereafter to ensure that they remain perpetually under contract?

Genius.

[John]

Ah, OK then. So the masterplan is to buy 20m pounds worth of players and then meet any contract demands they make thereafter to ensure that they remain perpetually under contract?

Genius.
No sell them on.

[Malicious Steve]

If you let them. Is it a requirement the new owner is an idiot?

HAVE YOU APPLIED?

[John]

HAVE YOU APPLIED?
Why?
Were you worried you were too late

[Visage Wolf]

No sell them on.

And if they've deprecated in value? Or if no-one wants to buy?

[John]

And if they've deprecated in value? Or if no-one wants to buy?
Only buy players costing small amounts, buy them young, play them in the first team, keep selling them on.
The only reason we have not got buyers queing up for the club is the conditions SJH has imposed make it impossible to be sold.

[Visage Wolf]

Why are Leicester so much more of an attractive proposition than Wolves when all the new owner will be getting extra is a piece of land and paying £5m-£10m more?

The answer's in this thread:

http://www.molineuxmix.co.uk/vb/showthread.php?t=14313

[Visage Wolf]

Only buy players costing small amounts, buy them young, play them in the first team, keep selling them on.
The only reason we have not got buyers queing up for the club is the conditions SJH has imposed make it impossible to be sold.

Right so your plan for footballing and financial success is simply 'Buy players who'll go up in value'?

You really are an idiot.

[Malicious Steve]

Why?
Were you worried you were too late

No I don't fit the profile

[Visage Wolf]

Thanks. Learn from me and you'll be in McCai's premier league in no time.

[John]

Right so your plan for footballing and financial success is simply 'Buy players who'll go up in value'?

You really are an idiot.
No, my answer to your frankly pathetic attempts to back SJH disgusting behaviour, are to point out every reason you come up with for people not wanting to buy Wolves is without any substance.
Face facts, we are not realistically for sale

[Visage Wolf]

No, my answer to your frankly pathetic attempts to back SJH disgusting behaviour, are to point out every reason you come up with for people not wanting to buy Wolves is without any substance.
Face facts, we are not realistically for sale

Ive never said we are realistically for sale.

I've said we are for sale, and i've also said that no reasonable investor would touch us with a barge pole under the terms offered.

Meanwhile you keep banging on about Leicester because you dont have the basic intelligence to see that the two clubs are in no way comparable.

(Nice emotive language, BTW)

[John]

Ive never said we are realistically for sale.

I've said we are for sale, and i've also said that no reasonable investor would touch us with a barge pole under the terms offered.

Meanwhile you keep banging on about Leicester because you dont have the basic intelligence to see that the two clubs are in no way comparable.

(Nice emotive language, BTW)
We are completely comparable.
Leicester are for sale, because they are worth what must be paid.
We are not for sale, because SJH has so many conditions attached and has priced us so ridiculously no-one can make it work. Given the man is a ruthless buisness man he will know the terms are unrealistic.
The only conclusion is he has no intention of selling.
Makes him a bit of a liar really.
Still, he is a lovely old man.

[wolfyjoe]

We are completely comparable.
Leicester are for sale, because they are worth what must be paid.
We are not for sale, because SJH has so many conditions attached and has priced us so ridiculously no-one can make it work. Given the man is a ruthless buisness man he will know the terms are unrealistic.
The only conclusion is he has no intention of selling.
Makes him a bit of a liar really.
Still, he is a lovely old man.

Where the friggin hell did u get all that from??? Conditions??? Priced us ridiculously??? Really? :confused:

[Essex Wolf]

I've said we are for sale, and i've also said that no reasonable investor would touch us with a barge pole under the terms offered.



So is SJH making it look as if he wants investors but doesn't all all really?

[whitemouse75]

No I don't fit the profile


quite. you would need to go outside for a start, where all the people are.

scary huh?

[whitemouse75]

So is SJH making it look as if he wants investors but doesn't all all really?


will this vital question see the end of 6 pages of hard reading?

[The Vicar]

Still, he is a lovely old man.


Is he $$$$$.

[Kenny-11]

By the way,what was the conclusion to all that business?

Still on going

[Rhoswolf]

Take a step back and both sides to this debate actually agree, i.e. the so-called offer put forward by SJH is so unattractive that it is highly unikely to attract any potential investors.

[Kenny-11]

Take a step back and both sides to this debate actually agree, i.e. the so-called offer put forward by SJH is so unattractive that it is highly unikely to attract any potential investors.

Until SJH actually announces the full details of the "terms" we will never know. A job for DW and Bod to press at the next meeting they attend. As fans we deserve to know what exactly SJH is demanding from people who want to take the club over.

[Visage Wolf]

So is SJH making it look as if he wants investors but doesn't all all really?

I wouldnt go as far as to ascribe motive to his terms, but the end effect is as you describe, yes.

[Ogerp]

Yyyyyaaaaaaawwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn

[leedswolf]

I dont think Mrs St George By the way,what was the conclusion to all that business?

It's still on going

[Kenny-11]

It's still on going

I've already said that you drunk Northerner (;) )

[Florida Wolfey]

As fans we deserve to know what exactly SJH is demanding from people who want to take the club over.

Why?

[gaz kford]

Why?


He's on one tonight FW. ;)

[Kenny-11]

Why?

Because I say so.

[UNCLE REMUS]

2001-2004

Combined Premier League Clubs lost £418 million
Combined Football League Clubs lost £299 million
Scottish Premier League Clubs lost £130 million

"Which is why the ownership of clubs is a never ending carousel of financial admisitration and shifting ownership as another have a go business hero has a go, blows his dough and hopefully gets out with a bit more than Mark Goldberg."

Investing in a football club in this country is a sure fire way to loose your money. The new business model of stock market floatation was tried and failed, with club owners forming a queue to de-list. You now have foreign investors being the only ones that "want to play"

One thing that will not worry Wolves from a take over point of view, because we own $$$$ all , in the FT this year featured an article on the real estate value of football clubs,the analysis was pretty stark.It concluded that only 16 out of 92 clubs should maintain their grounds as sporting venues as the land was more valuable at today's prices as retail or housing developement. When dreams turn sour the "new owners" will be making the same calculation and they won't have to live with consequences in their tax havens.

Wolves haven't got this problem because as I have said in the last paragraph, we own nothing any new owner would be buying into Wolves on a football basis, knowing that he will plough millions into the club for no return.
I haven't got the money but if I had and wanted to invest, I would be looking for some security against that investment.

So guys it's going to get worse before it get's better.

[leedswolf]

I've already said that you drunk Northerner (;) )

:D